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There is absolutely nothing wrong with a product not catering to everybody. Even moreso when we are talking about a work of art.

by Levitz 5y ago

zasdffaa 5y ago
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with a product not catering to everybody certainly agree > Even moreso when we are talking about a work of art. why does art get special consideration?
- Barrin92 5y ago
  >why does art get special consideration? because art is a way of personal expression and its function, ideally is to elicit growth in the people who engage with it. On the other hand I don't need a Dark Souls can opener.
  - zasdffaa 5y ago
    you attribute to art things which you don't define ("personal expression") and a function that cannot be measured and which you probably can't even define ("... growth in the people who engage with it"). 'growth'? in what? what is 'engage with it' mean? What if I disagree, does that mean I have a different and valid opinion, or that I'm mentally stunted and unable to 'grow'? I could go on. Your justification is the kind of unchallengeable nebulosity that artist types come up with to justify stuff, and if I don't get it, I'm wrong. I'm not anti-art by any means, but I do wonder at the ability of 'art' as a topic to inhibit critical thinking, or making up one's own mind. IMO anyway.
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      Not really sure where the confusion comes from. Personal expression in art is translating feelings, ideas or concepts you have into a work of art. If other people understand you through your work of art, you've done a good job as an artist. Growth can come in many forms. Learning something about the artist, learning something about yourself while studying art, learning how to distinguish good critique from bad critique, how form and function of art work together, and so on. There's nothing nebulous here. It's ironic that you go on a rant about 'art types' and demand critical thinking but then in some passive aggressive tone deserve that people serve you definitions on a platter. And sure you can disagree, nothing I said implies you can't, I didn't call anyone mentally stunted so I don't know where that comes from.
      - zasdffaa 5y ago
        This is a respectable attempt at an answer (bar para 3 anyway) and exactly what I so rarely get. I just get shut down because "it's art" and you don't question it. It's art so it's beautiful, it's art so it's valuable. The angry grunt from people or the silent downvotes here is the usual, so I appreciate this answer, or an attempt at thereof I don't agree with what you say but I do appreciate your trying. Not enough karma to upvote you so a simple thanks must suffice. I wish we had a chance to talk in person on this.
UncleMeat 5y ago
Sure. And there is similarly nothing wrong with a product adding options to cater to a wider audience. I don't think many of the people asking for easy mode think that Miyazaki is a bad person. But I've certainly been called some pretty nasty things for suggesting an easy mode. What I'd like is for people to be able to express their preference without being attacked for being perceived as scrubs.
- Jensson 5y ago
  There is no game with multiple difficulty options where hard mode is as well designed as in fromsoft games. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that adding easy modes significantly detracts from the experience of hard mode options. You can argue all you want about how in theory it shouldn't affect hard mode experience, but that goes against everything we see happening in practice. So for the people who likes hardmode, you are extremely greedy when you want to remove the only game offering the hardmode those people want, you can just go and play any of all the other easy mode games while they have no other options. You are a part of the majority who is catered to in almost every game going to the minority asking them why they don't cater to you as well, of course they get angry.
  - kaesar14 5y ago
    Very well put. And the feeling of accomplishment of conquering a boss is shared by _everyone_ who plays this game. Beating Radahn or Malenia in ER or The Nameless King in DS3 or O&S in DS1 was always a magnificent feeling and one that everyone else in the community knew and appreciated when found in one another. It would cheapen it so much if I knew you could just turn a slider down and really diminish the community experience. Agreed, go play something else if you want an easy game. This ain’t it.
    - bontaq 5y ago
      Yep, and that is miyazaki's feelings as well. "We don't want to include a difficulty selection because we want to bring everyone to the same level of discussion and the same level of enjoyment," Miyazaki said. "So we want everyone … to first face that challenge and to overcome it in some way that suits them as a player." "We want everyone to feel that sense of accomplishment. We want everyone to feel elated and to join that discussion on the same level. We feel if there's different difficulties, that's going to segment and fragment the user base. People will have different experiences based on that [differing difficulty level]. This is something we take to heart when we design games. It's been the same way for previous titles and it's very much the same with Sekiro." It makes some sense, the constant in the world is the bosses, so you have to change yourself in some way to beat them. If you suck at souls games, like I do, that means a lot of studying to finally win. But then I'm content that I've beaten the same thing everyone has. Quotes from https://www.gamespot.com/articles/heres-why-dark-souls-bloodborne-and-sekiro-dont-ha/1100-6459827/ https://www.gamespot.com/articles/heres-why-dark-souls-blood...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a product not catering to everybody. Even moreso when we are talking about a work of art.

by Levitz 5y ago

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a product not catering to everybody. Even moreso when we are talking about a work of art.

zasdffaa 5y ago

> There is absolutely nothing wrong with a product not catering to everybody certainly agree > Even moreso when we are talking about a work of art. why does art get special consideration?

Barrin92 5y ago
>why does art get special consideration? because art is a way of personal expression and its function, ideally is to elicit growth in the people who engage with it. On the other hand I don't need a Dark Souls can opener.
- zasdffaa 5y ago
  you attribute to art things which you don't define ("personal expression") and a function that cannot be measured and which you probably can't even define ("... growth in the people who engage with it"). 'growth'? in what? what is 'engage with it' mean? What if I disagree, does that mean I have a different and valid opinion, or that I'm mentally stunted and unable to 'grow'? I could go on. Your justification is the kind of unchallengeable nebulosity that artist types come up with to justify stuff, and if I don't get it, I'm wrong. I'm not anti-art by any means, but I do wonder at the ability of 'art' as a topic to inhibit critical thinking, or making up one's own mind. IMO anyway.
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    Not really sure where the confusion comes from. Personal expression in art is translating feelings, ideas or concepts you have into a work of art. If other people understand you through your work of art, you've done a good job as an artist. Growth can come in many forms. Learning something about the artist, learning something about yourself while studying art, learning how to distinguish good critique from bad critique, how form and function of art work together, and so on. There's nothing nebulous here. It's ironic that you go on a rant about 'art types' and demand critical thinking but then in some passive aggressive tone deserve that people serve you definitions on a platter. And sure you can disagree, nothing I said implies you can't, I didn't call anyone mentally stunted so I don't know where that comes from.
    - zasdffaa 5y ago
      This is a respectable attempt at an answer (bar para 3 anyway) and exactly what I so rarely get. I just get shut down because "it's art" and you don't question it. It's art so it's beautiful, it's art so it's valuable. The angry grunt from people or the silent downvotes here is the usual, so I appreciate this answer, or an attempt at thereof I don't agree with what you say but I do appreciate your trying. Not enough karma to upvote you so a simple thanks must suffice. I wish we had a chance to talk in person on this.

UncleMeat 5y ago

Sure. And there is similarly nothing wrong with a product adding options to cater to a wider audience. I don't think many of the people asking for easy mode think that Miyazaki is a bad person. But I've certainly been called some pretty nasty things for suggesting an easy mode. What I'd like is for people to be able to express their preference without being attacked for being perceived as scrubs.

Jensson 5y ago
There is no game with multiple difficulty options where hard mode is as well designed as in fromsoft games. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that adding easy modes significantly detracts from the experience of hard mode options. You can argue all you want about how in theory it shouldn't affect hard mode experience, but that goes against everything we see happening in practice. So for the people who likes hardmode, you are extremely greedy when you want to remove the only game offering the hardmode those people want, you can just go and play any of all the other easy mode games while they have no other options. You are a part of the majority who is catered to in almost every game going to the minority asking them why they don't cater to you as well, of course they get angry.
- kaesar14 5y ago
  Very well put. And the feeling of accomplishment of conquering a boss is shared by _everyone_ who plays this game. Beating Radahn or Malenia in ER or The Nameless King in DS3 or O&S in DS1 was always a magnificent feeling and one that everyone else in the community knew and appreciated when found in one another. It would cheapen it so much if I knew you could just turn a slider down and really diminish the community experience. Agreed, go play something else if you want an easy game. This ain’t it.
  - bontaq 5y ago
    Yep, and that is miyazaki's feelings as well. "We don't want to include a difficulty selection because we want to bring everyone to the same level of discussion and the same level of enjoyment," Miyazaki said. "So we want everyone … to first face that challenge and to overcome it in some way that suits them as a player." "We want everyone to feel that sense of accomplishment. We want everyone to feel elated and to join that discussion on the same level. We feel if there's different difficulties, that's going to segment and fragment the user base. People will have different experiences based on that [differing difficulty level]. This is something we take to heart when we design games. It's been the same way for previous titles and it's very much the same with Sekiro." It makes some sense, the constant in the world is the bosses, so you have to change yourself in some way to beat them. If you suck at souls games, like I do, that means a lot of studying to finally win. But then I'm content that I've beaten the same thing everyone has. Quotes from https://www.gamespot.com/articles/heres-why-dark-souls-bloodborne-and-sekiro-dont-ha/1100-6459827/ https://www.gamespot.com/articles/heres-why-dark-souls-blood...