7 ms·

For many people, this level of difficulty is just impossibility.

jcutrell 5y ago
Which ultimately means the game becomes a step more towards exclusive, for better or worse. Probably for worse.
xipho 5y ago
Streamers (e.g. MoonMoon's playthrough) are pointing out that if you go "everywhere" and do "everything", truly immersing yourself (as perhaps intended), and you don't rush from boss-to-boss that that "difficulty" is greatly reduced to non-existent. Yes, some very hard spots, but far less than one would assume from the outset based on quick overviews. There are also builds that greatly reduce difficulty making some "impossible" bosses trivial.
- jrootabega 5y ago
  Hmmm...I wonder if that's something you would have to deliberately do. In Witcher 3, the world was so huge and engrossing that, just by exploring and participating in it, I outleveled quests, and had a very hard time catching my quests and world progression up to my power even when I tried to. Enabling enemies to scale to my level wasn't the best solution, since it just meant that instead of everything being easy, everything became equally hard.
  - xipho 5y ago
    He is defintely deliberate about it, from what I can tell.
Levitz 5y ago
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a product not catering to everybody. Even moreso when we are talking about a work of art.
- zasdffaa 5y ago
  > There is absolutely nothing wrong with a product not catering to everybody certainly agree > Even moreso when we are talking about a work of art. why does art get special consideration?
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    >why does art get special consideration? because art is a way of personal expression and its function, ideally is to elicit growth in the people who engage with it. On the other hand I don't need a Dark Souls can opener.
    - zasdffaa 5y ago
      you attribute to art things which you don't define ("personal expression") and a function that cannot be measured and which you probably can't even define ("... growth in the people who engage with it"). 'growth'? in what? what is 'engage with it' mean? What if I disagree, does that mean I have a different and valid opinion, or that I'm mentally stunted and unable to 'grow'? I could go on. Your justification is the kind of unchallengeable nebulosity that artist types come up with to justify stuff, and if I don't get it, I'm wrong. I'm not anti-art by any means, but I do wonder at the ability of 'art' as a topic to inhibit critical thinking, or making up one's own mind. IMO anyway.
      - Barrin92 5y ago
        Not really sure where the confusion comes from. Personal expression in art is translating feelings, ideas or concepts you have into a work of art. If other people understand you through your work of art, you've done a good job as an artist. Growth can come in many forms. Learning something about the artist, learning something about yourself while studying art, learning how to distinguish good critique from bad critique, how form and function of art work together, and so on. There's nothing nebulous here. It's ironic that you go on a rant about 'art types' and demand critical thinking but then in some passive aggressive tone deserve that people serve you definitions on a platter. And sure you can disagree, nothing I said implies you can't, I didn't call anyone mentally stunted so I don't know where that comes from.
chrsig 5y ago
I doubt this is true, as much for many people, they're not willing to invest the time to overcome the challenge. Which is fine, but they're not the target audience, and that's also ok.
qwertycrackers 5y ago
I feel like people who say this sort of thing just have not actually played these games. I understand that in theory, a game could require extremely good reaction times or complicated inputs which make it exclusive. But Elden Ring is definitely not hard in that respect. In fact, part of the difficulty is that all the animations are long and you can't cancel them. This actually removes the need for good reaction time -- you have more than enough time to hit a button when you know you will need to. The "difficulty" really arises from the need for game knowledge -- you have to keep dying until you figure out the right weapon, right spell, or right attack which works well against a particular encounter. And find all the places you can upgrade your weapons and tools and such. After you do these things, the game is in fact quite easy. Hunting around and gathering this stuff is the core fun of the game and I can't see how this is exclusionary toward anybody who would want to play. I suppose there is a segment of people who would like to see images of the game without doing that but honestly... just watch a Let's Play. That way you don't even need to pay for the game.
- jrootabega 5y ago
  The controversy (or rather the online dialogue about a controversy which may or may not really exist) over game difficulty is kind of a smaller proxy battle in a larger culture war, as well as a topic that tends to come up when megacorps can use it for self-promotion. e.g. Microsoft/Double Fine and Psychonauts 2. Have they said anything whatsoever about Elden Ring accessibility?
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  > I feel like people who say this sort of thing just have not actually played these games. I think this is uncharitable. You can look at completion rates on Steam for some data. I personally stopped playing the xbox360 version of DS1 because the goddamn giants in Lost Izalith kept respawning (something that was mercifully changed with patches). I'd have kept going if I had the patched (and easier) game.
  - dkersten 5y ago
    > You can look at completion rates on Steam for some data. I think we have to accept that not every game is for every person. How adamantly FROM Software fans defend the difficulty shows that this style of game is greatly appreciated by many and, while it sucks to not be into that if the rest of the game looks good to you, I think we just have to be ok with the fact that ok maybe this game was made for people who are into that. Personally, I appreciate that FROM Software basically force me to learn their games mechanics rather than button mashing my way through, even if it is very frustrating in the moment. I know I'm not good enough to persevere if I could just play in easy mode, and I would have missed out on some truly exhilarating moments. I understand that that's just me and everyone is different, but I mean, there's plenty of games out there, not all have to cater to everyone. There are certainly plenty of games that I think look really cool but ultimately I don't feel are for me (most multiplayer games, really. Even if they look awesome, I just don't have the dedication for it). This is also why I think its important to watch gameplay videos before you buy, so that you know what you're getting yourself into.
MisterBastahrd 5y ago
Not even close. Welcome to the 70s and 80s where there was no such thing as savegames for the most part and you got 3 deaths before starting over. This is no different. A boss is just a level of sorts. You learn the mechanics and then you beat the boss and move on. Do it enough times and you can do it in your sleep. People have been playing ridiculously forgiving and easy games where there's no cost of failure so long that they don't even know what a merely challenging game is.
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  Difficulty systems in the 70s and 80s were famously for eating quarter rather than based on any actual game design philosophy. Not exactly a comparison I think is worth making. The "just learn the boss" argument is also somewhat frustrating given how frequently there are long ass walks back from bonfires to boss doors. Dying a bunch to learn the tells and attack timings is much less attractive when it takes minutes to go from a death to your next attempt. Compare this to something like Hotline Miami where you are playing again instantly. Much better option there.

Which ultimately means the game becomes a step more towards exclusive, for better or worse. Probably for worse.

Streamers (e.g. MoonMoon's playthrough) are pointing out that if you go "everywhere" and do "everything", truly immersing yourself (as perhaps intended), and you don't rush from boss-to-boss that that "difficulty" is greatly reduced to non-existent. Yes, some very hard spots, but far less than one would assume from the outset based on quick overviews. There are also builds that greatly reduce difficulty making some "impossible" bosses trivial.

jrootabega 5y ago
Hmmm...I wonder if that's something you would have to deliberately do. In Witcher 3, the world was so huge and engrossing that, just by exploring and participating in it, I outleveled quests, and had a very hard time catching my quests and world progression up to my power even when I tried to. Enabling enemies to scale to my level wasn't the best solution, since it just meant that instead of everything being easy, everything became equally hard.
- xipho 5y ago
  He is defintely deliberate about it, from what I can tell.

Levitz 5y ago

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a product not catering to everybody. Even moreso when we are talking about a work of art.

zasdffaa 5y ago
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with a product not catering to everybody certainly agree > Even moreso when we are talking about a work of art. why does art get special consideration?
- Barrin92 5y ago
  >why does art get special consideration? because art is a way of personal expression and its function, ideally is to elicit growth in the people who engage with it. On the other hand I don't need a Dark Souls can opener.
  - zasdffaa 5y ago
    you attribute to art things which you don't define ("personal expression") and a function that cannot be measured and which you probably can't even define ("... growth in the people who engage with it"). 'growth'? in what? what is 'engage with it' mean? What if I disagree, does that mean I have a different and valid opinion, or that I'm mentally stunted and unable to 'grow'? I could go on. Your justification is the kind of unchallengeable nebulosity that artist types come up with to justify stuff, and if I don't get it, I'm wrong. I'm not anti-art by any means, but I do wonder at the ability of 'art' as a topic to inhibit critical thinking, or making up one's own mind. IMO anyway.
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      Not really sure where the confusion comes from. Personal expression in art is translating feelings, ideas or concepts you have into a work of art. If other people understand you through your work of art, you've done a good job as an artist. Growth can come in many forms. Learning something about the artist, learning something about yourself while studying art, learning how to distinguish good critique from bad critique, how form and function of art work together, and so on. There's nothing nebulous here. It's ironic that you go on a rant about 'art types' and demand critical thinking but then in some passive aggressive tone deserve that people serve you definitions on a platter. And sure you can disagree, nothing I said implies you can't, I didn't call anyone mentally stunted so I don't know where that comes from.

chrsig 5y ago

I doubt this is true, as much for many people, they're not willing to invest the time to overcome the challenge. Which is fine, but they're not the target audience, and that's also ok.

qwertycrackers 5y ago

I feel like people who say this sort of thing just have not actually played these games. I understand that in theory, a game could require extremely good reaction times or complicated inputs which make it exclusive. But Elden Ring is definitely not hard in that respect. In fact, part of the difficulty is that all the animations are long and you can't cancel them. This actually removes the need for good reaction time -- you have more than enough time to hit a button when you know you will need to. The "difficulty" really arises from the need for game knowledge -- you have to keep dying until you figure out the right weapon, right spell, or right attack which works well against a particular encounter. And find all the places you can upgrade your weapons and tools and such. After you do these things, the game is in fact quite easy. Hunting around and gathering this stuff is the core fun of the game and I can't see how this is exclusionary toward anybody who would want to play. I suppose there is a segment of people who would like to see images of the game without doing that but honestly... just watch a Let's Play. That way you don't even need to pay for the game.

jrootabega 5y ago
The controversy (or rather the online dialogue about a controversy which may or may not really exist) over game difficulty is kind of a smaller proxy battle in a larger culture war, as well as a topic that tends to come up when megacorps can use it for self-promotion. e.g. Microsoft/Double Fine and Psychonauts 2. Have they said anything whatsoever about Elden Ring accessibility?
UncleMeat 5y ago
> I feel like people who say this sort of thing just have not actually played these games. I think this is uncharitable. You can look at completion rates on Steam for some data. I personally stopped playing the xbox360 version of DS1 because the goddamn giants in Lost Izalith kept respawning (something that was mercifully changed with patches). I'd have kept going if I had the patched (and easier) game.
- dkersten 5y ago
  > You can look at completion rates on Steam for some data. I think we have to accept that not every game is for every person. How adamantly FROM Software fans defend the difficulty shows that this style of game is greatly appreciated by many and, while it sucks to not be into that if the rest of the game looks good to you, I think we just have to be ok with the fact that ok maybe this game was made for people who are into that. Personally, I appreciate that FROM Software basically force me to learn their games mechanics rather than button mashing my way through, even if it is very frustrating in the moment. I know I'm not good enough to persevere if I could just play in easy mode, and I would have missed out on some truly exhilarating moments. I understand that that's just me and everyone is different, but I mean, there's plenty of games out there, not all have to cater to everyone. There are certainly plenty of games that I think look really cool but ultimately I don't feel are for me (most multiplayer games, really. Even if they look awesome, I just don't have the dedication for it). This is also why I think its important to watch gameplay videos before you buy, so that you know what you're getting yourself into.

MisterBastahrd 5y ago

Not even close. Welcome to the 70s and 80s where there was no such thing as savegames for the most part and you got 3 deaths before starting over. This is no different. A boss is just a level of sorts. You learn the mechanics and then you beat the boss and move on. Do it enough times and you can do it in your sleep. People have been playing ridiculously forgiving and easy games where there's no cost of failure so long that they don't even know what a merely challenging game is.

UncleMeat 5y ago
Difficulty systems in the 70s and 80s were famously for eating quarter rather than based on any actual game design philosophy. Not exactly a comparison I think is worth making. The "just learn the boss" argument is also somewhat frustrating given how frequently there are long ass walks back from bonfires to boss doors. Dying a bunch to learn the tells and attack timings is much less attractive when it takes minutes to go from a death to your next attempt. Compare this to something like Hotline Miami where you are playing again instantly. Much better option there.