8 ms·

The difficulty is part of the artform

by kache_ 5y ago

amalcon 5y ago
The interesting thing about FromSoft games is that almost all of the difficulty is observation and timing. It's real difficulty, to be sure, but almost anybody (obviously without severe visual impairment) can learn observation and timing. It's not like a high APM or high precision thing, where you need good reflexes or dexterity with keyboard and mouse; it's mostly a matter of learning when to hit which button. The problem is that some people find it highly satisfying to learn when to hit which button, but some people find it boring. To the latter, this manifests as a level of difficulty so high that it almost prohibits playing the game. Which is fine -- not everyone needs to like every game -- but it's annoying to those people when others tell them that they should like it.
- Geee 5y ago
  There isn't much opportunity for learning when you get to face the enemy for just a few seconds, get killed and then have to grind through loading screen and low level enemies to get another try. It's just awful game design.
Filligree 5y ago
For many people, this level of difficulty is just impossibility.
- jcutrell 5y ago
  Which ultimately means the game becomes a step more towards exclusive, for better or worse. Probably for worse.
- xipho 5y ago
  Streamers (e.g. MoonMoon's playthrough) are pointing out that if you go "everywhere" and do "everything", truly immersing yourself (as perhaps intended), and you don't rush from boss-to-boss that that "difficulty" is greatly reduced to non-existent. Yes, some very hard spots, but far less than one would assume from the outset based on quick overviews. There are also builds that greatly reduce difficulty making some "impossible" bosses trivial.
  - jrootabega 5y ago
    Hmmm...I wonder if that's something you would have to deliberately do. In Witcher 3, the world was so huge and engrossing that, just by exploring and participating in it, I outleveled quests, and had a very hard time catching my quests and world progression up to my power even when I tried to. Enabling enemies to scale to my level wasn't the best solution, since it just meant that instead of everything being easy, everything became equally hard.
    - xipho 5y ago
      He is defintely deliberate about it, from what I can tell.
- Levitz 5y ago
  There is absolutely nothing wrong with a product not catering to everybody. Even moreso when we are talking about a work of art.
  - zasdffaa 5y ago
    > There is absolutely nothing wrong with a product not catering to everybody certainly agree > Even moreso when we are talking about a work of art. why does art get special consideration?
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      >why does art get special consideration? because art is a way of personal expression and its function, ideally is to elicit growth in the people who engage with it. On the other hand I don't need a Dark Souls can opener.
      - zasdffaa 5y ago
        you attribute to art things which you don't define ("personal expression") and a function that cannot be measured and which you probably can't even define ("... growth in the people who engage with it"). 'growth'? in what? what is 'engage with it' mean? What if I disagree, does that mean I have a different and valid opinion, or that I'm mentally stunted and unable to 'grow'? I could go on. Your justification is the kind of unchallengeable nebulosity that artist types come up with to justify stuff, and if I don't get it, I'm wrong. I'm not anti-art by any means, but I do wonder at the ability of 'art' as a topic to inhibit critical thinking, or making up one's own mind. IMO anyway.
        Barrin92 5y ago
        Not really sure where the confusion comes from. Personal expression in art is translating feelings, ideas or concepts you have into a work of art. If other people understand you through your work of art, you've done a good job as an artist. Growth can come in many forms. Learning something about the artist, learning something about yourself while studying art, learning how to distinguish good critique from bad critique, how form and function of art work together, and so on. There's nothing nebulous here. It's ironic that you go on a rant about 'art types' and demand critical thinking but then in some passive aggressive tone deserve that people serve you definitions on a platter. And sure you can disagree, nothing I said implies you can't, I didn't call anyone mentally stunted so I don't know where that comes from.
- chrsig 5y ago
  I doubt this is true, as much for many people, they're not willing to invest the time to overcome the challenge. Which is fine, but they're not the target audience, and that's also ok.
- qwertycrackers 5y ago
  I feel like people who say this sort of thing just have not actually played these games. I understand that in theory, a game could require extremely good reaction times or complicated inputs which make it exclusive. But Elden Ring is definitely not hard in that respect. In fact, part of the difficulty is that all the animations are long and you can't cancel them. This actually removes the need for good reaction time -- you have more than enough time to hit a button when you know you will need to. The "difficulty" really arises from the need for game knowledge -- you have to keep dying until you figure out the right weapon, right spell, or right attack which works well against a particular encounter. And find all the places you can upgrade your weapons and tools and such. After you do these things, the game is in fact quite easy. Hunting around and gathering this stuff is the core fun of the game and I can't see how this is exclusionary toward anybody who would want to play. I suppose there is a segment of people who would like to see images of the game without doing that but honestly... just watch a Let's Play. That way you don't even need to pay for the game.
  - jrootabega 5y ago
    The controversy (or rather the online dialogue about a controversy which may or may not really exist) over game difficulty is kind of a smaller proxy battle in a larger culture war, as well as a topic that tends to come up when megacorps can use it for self-promotion. e.g. Microsoft/Double Fine and Psychonauts 2. Have they said anything whatsoever about Elden Ring accessibility?
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    > I feel like people who say this sort of thing just have not actually played these games. I think this is uncharitable. You can look at completion rates on Steam for some data. I personally stopped playing the xbox360 version of DS1 because the goddamn giants in Lost Izalith kept respawning (something that was mercifully changed with patches). I'd have kept going if I had the patched (and easier) game.
    - dkersten 5y ago
      > You can look at completion rates on Steam for some data. I think we have to accept that not every game is for every person. How adamantly FROM Software fans defend the difficulty shows that this style of game is greatly appreciated by many and, while it sucks to not be into that if the rest of the game looks good to you, I think we just have to be ok with the fact that ok maybe this game was made for people who are into that. Personally, I appreciate that FROM Software basically force me to learn their games mechanics rather than button mashing my way through, even if it is very frustrating in the moment. I know I'm not good enough to persevere if I could just play in easy mode, and I would have missed out on some truly exhilarating moments. I understand that that's just me and everyone is different, but I mean, there's plenty of games out there, not all have to cater to everyone. There are certainly plenty of games that I think look really cool but ultimately I don't feel are for me (most multiplayer games, really. Even if they look awesome, I just don't have the dedication for it). This is also why I think its important to watch gameplay videos before you buy, so that you know what you're getting yourself into.
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  Not even close. Welcome to the 70s and 80s where there was no such thing as savegames for the most part and you got 3 deaths before starting over. This is no different. A boss is just a level of sorts. You learn the mechanics and then you beat the boss and move on. Do it enough times and you can do it in your sleep. People have been playing ridiculously forgiving and easy games where there's no cost of failure so long that they don't even know what a merely challenging game is.
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    Difficulty systems in the 70s and 80s were famously for eating quarter rather than based on any actual game design philosophy. Not exactly a comparison I think is worth making. The "just learn the boss" argument is also somewhat frustrating given how frequently there are long ass walks back from bonfires to boss doors. Dying a bunch to learn the tells and attack timings is much less attractive when it takes minutes to go from a death to your next attempt. Compare this to something like Hotline Miami where you are playing again instantly. Much better option there.
1_player 5y ago
In fact, death is an intended game mechanic of Soulsborne games. The highs of overcoming a challenging foe is much greater if victory isn't handed to you on a platter. And the game philosophy of the Dark Souls series has always been one of the protagonist being little more than just a mindless undead, unfit to live, let alone wear a crown. The difference is whether you see death as a set back and learning experience, or just a complete failure that frustrates you. It's a matter of mindset. But in general the difficulty of Soulsborne games is overstated. They're mechanically simple, combat is fair (RNG isn't a big factor), with plenty of opportunities to make the game easier. Just level up more. Now with Elden Ring you can choose to go elsewhere, and come back later, stronger. This game isn't about easy victory, so easy mode has no place existing. A piece of media doesn't have to cater to all audiences.
UncleMeat 5y ago
Part of. The context for this discussion is the atmosphere, lore, and art. That is independent of difficulty. And further, it is clearly not the case in any of the soulsborne games that the difficulty is tuned perfectly for each player. If that were true, there would be no interest in SL1 runes or there wouldn't have been patches rebalancing of Lost Izalith in DS1 or summons wouldn't be an available option.
- jibe 5y ago
  The difficulty and risk of death and loss is intrinsically intertwined with the atmosphere. There are many other games with amazing dark art, but without the actual fear of death from the game system, they have less impact.
  - LosWochosWeek 5y ago
    I have to disagree. It's not the dark art that makes Dark Souls unique. It's the combination of deep lore that isn't fully explained or explainable in the game, world building that somehow finds a way to look and feel extremely realistic and fitting while being dreamlike and fantastical at many points, a story that couldn't care less if you followed it, NPCs building an inescapable spell on your mind with 3 lines of non-sensical dialogue, and dark art that underlines and brings all those things together. There certainly aren't many games like that out there. I'd wager very few to nine, to be honest. On the contrary, there are boatloads Soulslike games out there that imitate the gameplay (including the difficulty and risk of death) that cannot even be mentioned with being in the same league as the original Souls games. If anything, in the year 2022 it's the Souls gameplay that's "generic" while the rest of the game is still unique in every sense of the word.
- deckard1 5y ago
  You're going to need a guide to understanding the lore and atmosphere. The hard mode is not contained to the game play. Bloodborne, for example, has the atmosphere change based on certain unlocked events and paths you choose to go down. Even if you notice the change in atmosphere, you're not going to understand how it fits together with the story. I'd just watch a YouTube walkthrough if you don't want to play. Playing the game, alone, is not enough to fully appreciate any of the Souls games.
bsder 5y ago
However, "difficulty" is Souls games has two parts. One good--one bad. 1) There is the "Git Gud" part. This is fine. Having some difficulty in executing game actions is fine. Having to be alert to even low-level enemies is fine. 2) There is the "WTF do I upgrade?" part. This is bad. "Poise" was the canonical example where if you didn't understand it you would get turned into paste by enemies with no idea why. Having to read a full treatise on the web before starting a game is not something you should have to do. To be fair, most RPGs suffer this problem, but the Souls games suffer it worst because the enemies hit very hard. I think the Souls games would benefit a lot from being able to freely reallocate your points in skill until you hit some level (10-15-20?) that then locks them in. "Hey, I got pasted by that enemy. Maybe I should adjust my skill points and see what that "poise" thing does on the next pass."

The difficulty is part of the artform

by kache_ 5y ago

The difficulty is part of the artform

The interesting thing about FromSoft games is that almost all of the difficulty is observation and timing. It's real difficulty, to be sure, but almost anybody (obviously without severe visual impairment) can learn observation and timing. It's not like a high APM or high precision thing, where you need good reflexes or dexterity with keyboard and mouse; it's mostly a matter of learning when to hit which button. The problem is that some people find it highly satisfying to learn when to hit which button, but some people find it boring. To the latter, this manifests as a level of difficulty so high that it almost prohibits playing the game. Which is fine -- not everyone needs to like every game -- but it's annoying to those people when others tell them that they should like it.

Geee 5y ago
There isn't much opportunity for learning when you get to face the enemy for just a few seconds, get killed and then have to grind through loading screen and low level enemies to get another try. It's just awful game design.

Filligree 5y ago

For many people, this level of difficulty is just impossibility.

jcutrell 5y ago
Which ultimately means the game becomes a step more towards exclusive, for better or worse. Probably for worse.
xipho 5y ago
Streamers (e.g. MoonMoon's playthrough) are pointing out that if you go "everywhere" and do "everything", truly immersing yourself (as perhaps intended), and you don't rush from boss-to-boss that that "difficulty" is greatly reduced to non-existent. Yes, some very hard spots, but far less than one would assume from the outset based on quick overviews. There are also builds that greatly reduce difficulty making some "impossible" bosses trivial.
- jrootabega 5y ago
  Hmmm...I wonder if that's something you would have to deliberately do. In Witcher 3, the world was so huge and engrossing that, just by exploring and participating in it, I outleveled quests, and had a very hard time catching my quests and world progression up to my power even when I tried to. Enabling enemies to scale to my level wasn't the best solution, since it just meant that instead of everything being easy, everything became equally hard.
  - xipho 5y ago
    He is defintely deliberate about it, from what I can tell.
Levitz 5y ago
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a product not catering to everybody. Even moreso when we are talking about a work of art.
- zasdffaa 5y ago
  > There is absolutely nothing wrong with a product not catering to everybody certainly agree > Even moreso when we are talking about a work of art. why does art get special consideration?
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    >why does art get special consideration? because art is a way of personal expression and its function, ideally is to elicit growth in the people who engage with it. On the other hand I don't need a Dark Souls can opener.
    - zasdffaa 5y ago
      you attribute to art things which you don't define ("personal expression") and a function that cannot be measured and which you probably can't even define ("... growth in the people who engage with it"). 'growth'? in what? what is 'engage with it' mean? What if I disagree, does that mean I have a different and valid opinion, or that I'm mentally stunted and unable to 'grow'? I could go on. Your justification is the kind of unchallengeable nebulosity that artist types come up with to justify stuff, and if I don't get it, I'm wrong. I'm not anti-art by any means, but I do wonder at the ability of 'art' as a topic to inhibit critical thinking, or making up one's own mind. IMO anyway.
      - Barrin92 5y ago
        Not really sure where the confusion comes from. Personal expression in art is translating feelings, ideas or concepts you have into a work of art. If other people understand you through your work of art, you've done a good job as an artist. Growth can come in many forms. Learning something about the artist, learning something about yourself while studying art, learning how to distinguish good critique from bad critique, how form and function of art work together, and so on. There's nothing nebulous here. It's ironic that you go on a rant about 'art types' and demand critical thinking but then in some passive aggressive tone deserve that people serve you definitions on a platter. And sure you can disagree, nothing I said implies you can't, I didn't call anyone mentally stunted so I don't know where that comes from.
chrsig 5y ago
I doubt this is true, as much for many people, they're not willing to invest the time to overcome the challenge. Which is fine, but they're not the target audience, and that's also ok.
qwertycrackers 5y ago
I feel like people who say this sort of thing just have not actually played these games. I understand that in theory, a game could require extremely good reaction times or complicated inputs which make it exclusive. But Elden Ring is definitely not hard in that respect. In fact, part of the difficulty is that all the animations are long and you can't cancel them. This actually removes the need for good reaction time -- you have more than enough time to hit a button when you know you will need to. The "difficulty" really arises from the need for game knowledge -- you have to keep dying until you figure out the right weapon, right spell, or right attack which works well against a particular encounter. And find all the places you can upgrade your weapons and tools and such. After you do these things, the game is in fact quite easy. Hunting around and gathering this stuff is the core fun of the game and I can't see how this is exclusionary toward anybody who would want to play. I suppose there is a segment of people who would like to see images of the game without doing that but honestly... just watch a Let's Play. That way you don't even need to pay for the game.
- jrootabega 5y ago
  The controversy (or rather the online dialogue about a controversy which may or may not really exist) over game difficulty is kind of a smaller proxy battle in a larger culture war, as well as a topic that tends to come up when megacorps can use it for self-promotion. e.g. Microsoft/Double Fine and Psychonauts 2. Have they said anything whatsoever about Elden Ring accessibility?
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  > I feel like people who say this sort of thing just have not actually played these games. I think this is uncharitable. You can look at completion rates on Steam for some data. I personally stopped playing the xbox360 version of DS1 because the goddamn giants in Lost Izalith kept respawning (something that was mercifully changed with patches). I'd have kept going if I had the patched (and easier) game.
  - dkersten 5y ago
    > You can look at completion rates on Steam for some data. I think we have to accept that not every game is for every person. How adamantly FROM Software fans defend the difficulty shows that this style of game is greatly appreciated by many and, while it sucks to not be into that if the rest of the game looks good to you, I think we just have to be ok with the fact that ok maybe this game was made for people who are into that. Personally, I appreciate that FROM Software basically force me to learn their games mechanics rather than button mashing my way through, even if it is very frustrating in the moment. I know I'm not good enough to persevere if I could just play in easy mode, and I would have missed out on some truly exhilarating moments. I understand that that's just me and everyone is different, but I mean, there's plenty of games out there, not all have to cater to everyone. There are certainly plenty of games that I think look really cool but ultimately I don't feel are for me (most multiplayer games, really. Even if they look awesome, I just don't have the dedication for it). This is also why I think its important to watch gameplay videos before you buy, so that you know what you're getting yourself into.
MisterBastahrd 5y ago
Not even close. Welcome to the 70s and 80s where there was no such thing as savegames for the most part and you got 3 deaths before starting over. This is no different. A boss is just a level of sorts. You learn the mechanics and then you beat the boss and move on. Do it enough times and you can do it in your sleep. People have been playing ridiculously forgiving and easy games where there's no cost of failure so long that they don't even know what a merely challenging game is.
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  Difficulty systems in the 70s and 80s were famously for eating quarter rather than based on any actual game design philosophy. Not exactly a comparison I think is worth making. The "just learn the boss" argument is also somewhat frustrating given how frequently there are long ass walks back from bonfires to boss doors. Dying a bunch to learn the tells and attack timings is much less attractive when it takes minutes to go from a death to your next attempt. Compare this to something like Hotline Miami where you are playing again instantly. Much better option there.

1_player 5y ago

In fact, death is an intended game mechanic of Soulsborne games. The highs of overcoming a challenging foe is much greater if victory isn't handed to you on a platter. And the game philosophy of the Dark Souls series has always been one of the protagonist being little more than just a mindless undead, unfit to live, let alone wear a crown. The difference is whether you see death as a set back and learning experience, or just a complete failure that frustrates you. It's a matter of mindset. But in general the difficulty of Soulsborne games is overstated. They're mechanically simple, combat is fair (RNG isn't a big factor), with plenty of opportunities to make the game easier. Just level up more. Now with Elden Ring you can choose to go elsewhere, and come back later, stronger. This game isn't about easy victory, so easy mode has no place existing. A piece of media doesn't have to cater to all audiences.

UncleMeat 5y ago

Part of. The context for this discussion is the atmosphere, lore, and art. That is independent of difficulty. And further, it is clearly not the case in any of the soulsborne games that the difficulty is tuned perfectly for each player. If that were true, there would be no interest in SL1 runes or there wouldn't have been patches rebalancing of Lost Izalith in DS1 or summons wouldn't be an available option.

jibe 5y ago
The difficulty and risk of death and loss is intrinsically intertwined with the atmosphere. There are many other games with amazing dark art, but without the actual fear of death from the game system, they have less impact.
- LosWochosWeek 5y ago
  I have to disagree. It's not the dark art that makes Dark Souls unique. It's the combination of deep lore that isn't fully explained or explainable in the game, world building that somehow finds a way to look and feel extremely realistic and fitting while being dreamlike and fantastical at many points, a story that couldn't care less if you followed it, NPCs building an inescapable spell on your mind with 3 lines of non-sensical dialogue, and dark art that underlines and brings all those things together. There certainly aren't many games like that out there. I'd wager very few to nine, to be honest. On the contrary, there are boatloads Soulslike games out there that imitate the gameplay (including the difficulty and risk of death) that cannot even be mentioned with being in the same league as the original Souls games. If anything, in the year 2022 it's the Souls gameplay that's "generic" while the rest of the game is still unique in every sense of the word.
deckard1 5y ago
You're going to need a guide to understanding the lore and atmosphere. The hard mode is not contained to the game play. Bloodborne, for example, has the atmosphere change based on certain unlocked events and paths you choose to go down. Even if you notice the change in atmosphere, you're not going to understand how it fits together with the story. I'd just watch a YouTube walkthrough if you don't want to play. Playing the game, alone, is not enough to fully appreciate any of the Souls games.

bsder 5y ago

However, "difficulty" is Souls games has two parts. One good--one bad. 1) There is the "Git Gud" part. This is fine. Having some difficulty in executing game actions is fine. Having to be alert to even low-level enemies is fine. 2) There is the "WTF do I upgrade?" part. This is bad. "Poise" was the canonical example where if you didn't understand it you would get turned into paste by enemies with no idea why. Having to read a full treatise on the web before starting a game is not something you should have to do. To be fair, most RPGs suffer this problem, but the Souls games suffer it worst because the enemies hit very hard. I think the Souls games would benefit a lot from being able to freely reallocate your points in skill until you hit some level (10-15-20?) that then locks them in. "Hey, I got pasted by that enemy. Maybe I should adjust my skill points and see what that "poise" thing does on the next pass."