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A lot. Pen tests, red teams, simulations, etc. The point is, if they want someone poking around these systems, they'll contract with them to do that. You shoul

by _wldu 5y ago

A lot. Pen tests, red teams, simulations, etc. The point is, if they want someone poking around these systems, they'll contract with them to do that. You should not tamper with them just out of curiosity. Convicted felons have a hard time finding jobs.

krnlpnc 5y ago
Which is nonsense, what was the purpose of punitive action (jail) when a person will be punished for the rest if their life via stigma and ineligibility for jobs. How is that “correcting” a persons behavior?
- hedora 5y ago
  It makes sure you never stop correcting them. Once a customer of the penal system, always a customer. They've worked hard to get their retention / repeat business numbers up this high. Why take that away from them?
- mbreese 5y ago
  The punishment isn’t only a punishment for the individual. It’s a deterrent to keep the next person from doing whatever it was that was illegal. You can argue if that’s right or wrong, but that’s one of the points of many sentences — to send a “message” to others who might commit a crime.
  - akerl_ 5y ago
    “Don’t do crime, but if you do, I guess keep doing crimes forever because we’re going to make it hard for you to get a real job” isn’t really a compelling strategy.
    - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
      That's the business model of the prison industrial complex.
      - akerl_ 5y ago
        Let’s be clear where the blame sits. The “prison industrial complex” isn’t creating this. Private enterprise is set up to profit from incarceration rates and thus recidivism, but the reason that people can’t get jobs after they finish their sentence is the fault of all of us. Every company that refuses to hire somebody with a record is contributing to the problem, as is every person who looks down on somebody for having been incarcerated.
        lupire 5y ago
        If there are fewer jobs than people, some people will not have jobs and theus be tempted into criminal behavior. If there are more jobs than people, felons will be hired.
        akerl_ 5y ago
        This is pretty intensely reductive of the actual state of the world. It only works if all people are competing for all jobs, which they are not. To pick a boring example, see the multitude of companies complaining about labor shortages and also the number of felons who are struggling to find jobs.
    - lobocinza 5y ago
      It's optimized for retention and not for reintegration.
  - MereInterest 5y ago
    We could also argue whether it is effective or ineffective. I understand the incentive being introduced, to tip the scales in a rational decision-making process against a criminal act. However, that assumes that criminal acts are the result of a rational decision-making process, and that the possibility of punishment is high enough to enter into that process. Given the recidivism rate of the US, I don't think it is effective. You can argue whether a punitive system that effectively provides a deterrent is right or wrong, but a punitive system that isn't effective as a deterrent cannot make the same argument.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
'The point is, if they want someone poking around these systems, they'll contract with them to do that' You plebs have no business poking around and find out what people in power are doing or find out if they've done their job properly. If they wanted someone holding them to account, they'd contract them to do thay'
sha256sum 5y ago
> A lot. Pen tests, red teams, simulations, etc Okay, I call bullshit. That which can be claimed without evidence can also be refuted without evidence. That said, if you’re feeling like finding out do heed caution because I’m sure the Man will love to make an example of the first person we figures out how to pump their gas at $0.01 per gallon.
- freedomben 5y ago
  > Okay, I call bullshit. That which can be claimed without evidence can also be refuted without evidence. Aside from the extreme rudeness, what evidence are you looking for? Do you want GP to attach sensitive or classified pen tests results here in public forum? GP's claim is so obviously true that I don't see why they would need to provide "evidence," but you can find a mountain of it yourself with a single duck: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=us+government+penetration+tests&atb=v314-2&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=us+government+penetration+tests&at... Pen tests are a requirement for any vendor doing business with the gov. Check out NIST 800-53 and the FedRAMP security process. It's much more intensive than SOC2 which is the standard in the commercial world. I think your information is about 10 to 20 years out of date.
  - hn_version_0023 5y ago
    Calling bullshit on someone isn’t rude, necessarily. Certainly it can be! But passing off bullshit as fact? That’s pretty damned rude.
    - imwillofficial 5y ago
      It is absolutely rude and breaks down the conversation that was being made in good faith.
      - hn_version_0023 5y ago
        We’ll have to agree to disagree. Personally I think the key is to not use the word “bullshit” unless you’re already on good terms with someone. But you can call BS without using that word, if you’re certain your audience is easily offended. Not caring if you offend someone? That’s also quite rude!

by _wldu 5y ago

krnlpnc 5y ago

Which is nonsense, what was the purpose of punitive action (jail) when a person will be punished for the rest if their life via stigma and ineligibility for jobs. How is that “correcting” a persons behavior?

hedora 5y ago
It makes sure you never stop correcting them. Once a customer of the penal system, always a customer. They've worked hard to get their retention / repeat business numbers up this high. Why take that away from them?
mbreese 5y ago
The punishment isn’t only a punishment for the individual. It’s a deterrent to keep the next person from doing whatever it was that was illegal. You can argue if that’s right or wrong, but that’s one of the points of many sentences — to send a “message” to others who might commit a crime.
- akerl_ 5y ago
  “Don’t do crime, but if you do, I guess keep doing crimes forever because we’re going to make it hard for you to get a real job” isn’t really a compelling strategy.
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    That's the business model of the prison industrial complex.
    - akerl_ 5y ago
      Let’s be clear where the blame sits. The “prison industrial complex” isn’t creating this. Private enterprise is set up to profit from incarceration rates and thus recidivism, but the reason that people can’t get jobs after they finish their sentence is the fault of all of us. Every company that refuses to hire somebody with a record is contributing to the problem, as is every person who looks down on somebody for having been incarcerated.
      - lupire 5y ago
        If there are fewer jobs than people, some people will not have jobs and theus be tempted into criminal behavior. If there are more jobs than people, felons will be hired.
        akerl_ 5y ago
        This is pretty intensely reductive of the actual state of the world. It only works if all people are competing for all jobs, which they are not. To pick a boring example, see the multitude of companies complaining about labor shortages and also the number of felons who are struggling to find jobs.
  - lobocinza 5y ago
    It's optimized for retention and not for reintegration.
- MereInterest 5y ago
  We could also argue whether it is effective or ineffective. I understand the incentive being introduced, to tip the scales in a rational decision-making process against a criminal act. However, that assumes that criminal acts are the result of a rational decision-making process, and that the possibility of punishment is high enough to enter into that process. Given the recidivism rate of the US, I don't think it is effective. You can argue whether a punitive system that effectively provides a deterrent is right or wrong, but a punitive system that isn't effective as a deterrent cannot make the same argument.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

'The point is, if they want someone poking around these systems, they'll contract with them to do that' You plebs have no business poking around and find out what people in power are doing or find out if they've done their job properly. If they wanted someone holding them to account, they'd contract them to do thay'

sha256sum 5y ago

> A lot. Pen tests, red teams, simulations, etc Okay, I call bullshit. That which can be claimed without evidence can also be refuted without evidence. That said, if you’re feeling like finding out do heed caution because I’m sure the Man will love to make an example of the first person we figures out how to pump their gas at $0.01 per gallon.

freedomben 5y ago
> Okay, I call bullshit. That which can be claimed without evidence can also be refuted without evidence. Aside from the extreme rudeness, what evidence are you looking for? Do you want GP to attach sensitive or classified pen tests results here in public forum? GP's claim is so obviously true that I don't see why they would need to provide "evidence," but you can find a mountain of it yourself with a single duck: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=us+government+penetration+tests&atb=v314-2&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=us+government+penetration+tests&at... Pen tests are a requirement for any vendor doing business with the gov. Check out NIST 800-53 and the FedRAMP security process. It's much more intensive than SOC2 which is the standard in the commercial world. I think your information is about 10 to 20 years out of date.
- hn_version_0023 5y ago
  Calling bullshit on someone isn’t rude, necessarily. Certainly it can be! But passing off bullshit as fact? That’s pretty damned rude.
  - imwillofficial 5y ago
    It is absolutely rude and breaks down the conversation that was being made in good faith.
    - hn_version_0023 5y ago
      We’ll have to agree to disagree. Personally I think the key is to not use the word “bullshit” unless you’re already on good terms with someone. But you can call BS without using that word, if you’re certain your audience is easily offended. Not caring if you offend someone? That’s also quite rude!