5 ms·

Mozilla Firefox and silent updates

60 points by mbrubeck 15y ago

calvin 15y ago
Summary: "People want silent updates for Firefox; we're working on it."
- 51Cards 15y ago
  Additional summary. "Not everyone wants automatic updates, so you'll still be able to do it the old way if you choose." This is what I like about Mozilla, choice. Thank you to the devs that keep user choice in mind.
- brianbondy 15y ago
  Based on a lot of feedback we're also going to only start the service when it is doing an update to ensure no overhead.
  - jigs_up 15y ago
    Why would you do it any other way? Laziness?
    - kevingadd 15y ago
      It's definitely much easier to leave your service going at all times. Google and Apple both go this route, despite the waste of resources implied.
      - dpearson 15y ago
        If done right, it shouldn't be that much of a performance drain, and the benefits would outweigh that.
        wvenable 15y ago
        What benefits?
    - huhtenberg 15y ago
      Why should a user program require an updater that needs to run with the root privileges? If it were on a #nix box that is locked down comparably to Windows/UAC, Firefox would've been sitting in ~/bin together with all other stuff that the user installs for himself. Windows remains the only mainstream OS that does not even have a notion of user-installed software and mandates (through its guidelines) that all software to be installed into %ProgramFiles%. There is an UAC, but there is no %UserProgramFiles%. This is truly idiotic, if you pardon my late night French, but not a bit surprising.
      - ldite 15y ago
        Not true; From Windows 7, Windows supports both per-machine and per-user "installation contexts" with separate "Program Files" directories: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd765197%28v=VS.85%29.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd765197%28v=VS.85%2... (see "ProgramFilesFolder" section)
      - darklajid 15y ago
        What is a 'user program'? If you're on a Linux machine the vast majority of people are going to use a package manager to install their software. It ends up in /usr not /home. I don't get your argument. Sure, you ~can~ install to ~/bin (and I'd guess you could change the FF install path to something outside of UAC protection/virtual folder redirection, maybe even now), but the majority doesn't. Not on Windows, not on Linux. Or are you going to tell me that the gazillion Ubuntu users install FF to ~/bin? How are they updating their packages? Right.. With a process that runs as root.
  - cpeterso 15y ago
    Why use a Windows service instead of installing in the user's %APPDATA% directory like Chrome? Admittedly, there is some wasted disk space if a Windows PC is shared by multiple users, who each install Firefox. But I imagine most Windows PC only have one user account.
    - darshan 15y ago
      From the article: There are several ways to tackle this issue. For example, some browsers that offer silent software updates will install into the user's application data folder and hence do not have this problem. We could do the same, but we chose not to because it can be an administrative headache for some people who manage updates themselves and have to maintain an installation for every user.
      - huhtenberg 15y ago
        Sure, but that's a lousy excuse. It is an administrative headache - just as they noted - for some people. The vast majority runs Windows with a single user account. Moreover, installing into %AppData is equivalent to installing into ~/bin - and this is exactly where user's programs should go. In other words, they have it backwards. They should be defaulting to %AppData with an in-process update mechanism, and optionally let it be installed into an admin-controlled directory, in which case fallback to the service-based updates.
        mariusmg 15y ago
        No, apps go into Program files.
        huhtenberg 15y ago
        Why?
        darklajid 15y ago
        Because you're used to have the choice of installing 'for me' or 'for all users' for aeons now on a Windows system. Because even my tiny deployments are better and safer if I can make sure that FF is updated for every user of my machines, instead of hoping that they'll get an update next time they browse Facebook. Because it's wasteful to install the very same software to different places. Yes, storage is cheap on modern hardware. No, not everyone uses FF on modern hardware. Profiles belong to the user. The application belongs - in a Windows world, in a Linux world - to the system / administrator. Love the mozilla guys for keeping the expectations intact. Re: "Program Files": Maybe ProgramData would be a decent place to drop updates. Program Files is supposed to be readonly, ProgramData is afaik the place designated for system-wide application data.
nextparadigms 15y ago
That's great news. Firefox needs this if they're going to stick with the 6 week update schedule. But this is just one of the features where they catch-up. They need more features where they differentiate/stay ahead of the competition in a big way, if they really want to get people's attention.
- notatoad 15y ago
  they don't need to differentiate or get people's attention. they need to do what they're doing: provide a solid product, adhere to standards, and stay quiet and out of the way. a browser isn't supposed to grab attention, it's just supposed to be a tool to view websites on.
  - dailycavalier 15y ago
    Mozilla full-time contributor here. I agree they need to do what they're doing - silent updates are super important for the product right now given the new release cycle. It's important that Mozilla does differentiate though. Firefox is the only browser that's made by a non-profit organization and puts your interests before business interests. Other browsers can't say that - they all have financial incentives and other agendas for you to use their product. Firefox provides choice so you have full control over your browsing experience.
    - jmathai 15y ago
      I wish more people understood the importance of what you just said. Not even the tech community seems to. Also, I presume the performance issues on OSX are a known issue. I'd love to read a plan for resolution for that. It can take 6 months, I'd feel better knowing it's a tangible goal that's being worked towards as opposed to "we're making improvements as we can". Lastly, thanks for contributing to Firefox.
  - ootachi 15y ago
    Would you say Apple should do the same with iOS? iOS is flashy and in your face. And it's the most successful software product of the decade.
lini 15y ago
Call me paranoid, but after I read about this service I immediately started thinking what would happen if the browser was compromised - no UAC prompt and elevated privileges through the service...
- dewiz 15y ago
  the service could verify that the browser is constantly in a safe state monitoring file changes, SHAs, etc
- ars 15y ago
  I should hope the service does not use the browser to configure itself. It should directly contact mozilla servers including verifying some kind of encryption signature. So if anything it could mitigate a compromised browser by overwriting it with a good one.
- sid0 15y ago
  The service wouldn't give the browser elevated privileges. If you're worried about an update being compromised, then don't, since they're delivered over SSL and (I believe) are also signed separately.

60 points by mbrubeck 15y ago

calvin 15y ago

Summary: "People want silent updates for Firefox; we're working on it."

51Cards 15y ago
Additional summary. "Not everyone wants automatic updates, so you'll still be able to do it the old way if you choose." This is what I like about Mozilla, choice. Thank you to the devs that keep user choice in mind.
brianbondy 15y ago
Based on a lot of feedback we're also going to only start the service when it is doing an update to ensure no overhead.
- jigs_up 15y ago
  Why would you do it any other way? Laziness?
  - kevingadd 15y ago
    It's definitely much easier to leave your service going at all times. Google and Apple both go this route, despite the waste of resources implied.
    - dpearson 15y ago
      If done right, it shouldn't be that much of a performance drain, and the benefits would outweigh that.
      - wvenable 15y ago
        What benefits?
  - huhtenberg 15y ago
    Why should a user program require an updater that needs to run with the root privileges? If it were on a #nix box that is locked down comparably to Windows/UAC, Firefox would've been sitting in ~/bin together with all other stuff that the user installs for himself. Windows remains the only mainstream OS that does not even have a notion of user-installed software and mandates (through its guidelines) that all software to be installed into %ProgramFiles%. There is an UAC, but there is no %UserProgramFiles%. This is truly idiotic, if you pardon my late night French, but not a bit surprising.
    - ldite 15y ago
      Not true; From Windows 7, Windows supports both per-machine and per-user "installation contexts" with separate "Program Files" directories: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd765197%28v=VS.85%29.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd765197%28v=VS.85%2... (see "ProgramFilesFolder" section)
    - darklajid 15y ago
      What is a 'user program'? If you're on a Linux machine the vast majority of people are going to use a package manager to install their software. It ends up in /usr not /home. I don't get your argument. Sure, you ~can~ install to ~/bin (and I'd guess you could change the FF install path to something outside of UAC protection/virtual folder redirection, maybe even now), but the majority doesn't. Not on Windows, not on Linux. Or are you going to tell me that the gazillion Ubuntu users install FF to ~/bin? How are they updating their packages? Right.. With a process that runs as root.
- cpeterso 15y ago
  Why use a Windows service instead of installing in the user's %APPDATA% directory like Chrome? Admittedly, there is some wasted disk space if a Windows PC is shared by multiple users, who each install Firefox. But I imagine most Windows PC only have one user account.
  - darshan 15y ago
    From the article: There are several ways to tackle this issue. For example, some browsers that offer silent software updates will install into the user's application data folder and hence do not have this problem. We could do the same, but we chose not to because it can be an administrative headache for some people who manage updates themselves and have to maintain an installation for every user.
    - huhtenberg 15y ago
      Sure, but that's a lousy excuse. It is an administrative headache - just as they noted - for some people. The vast majority runs Windows with a single user account. Moreover, installing into %AppData is equivalent to installing into ~/bin - and this is exactly where user's programs should go. In other words, they have it backwards. They should be defaulting to %AppData with an in-process update mechanism, and optionally let it be installed into an admin-controlled directory, in which case fallback to the service-based updates.
      - mariusmg 15y ago
        No, apps go into Program files.
        huhtenberg 15y ago
        Why?
        darklajid 15y ago
        Because you're used to have the choice of installing 'for me' or 'for all users' for aeons now on a Windows system. Because even my tiny deployments are better and safer if I can make sure that FF is updated for every user of my machines, instead of hoping that they'll get an update next time they browse Facebook. Because it's wasteful to install the very same software to different places. Yes, storage is cheap on modern hardware. No, not everyone uses FF on modern hardware. Profiles belong to the user. The application belongs - in a Windows world, in a Linux world - to the system / administrator. Love the mozilla guys for keeping the expectations intact. Re: "Program Files": Maybe ProgramData would be a decent place to drop updates. Program Files is supposed to be readonly, ProgramData is afaik the place designated for system-wide application data.

nextparadigms 15y ago

That's great news. Firefox needs this if they're going to stick with the 6 week update schedule. But this is just one of the features where they catch-up. They need more features where they differentiate/stay ahead of the competition in a big way, if they really want to get people's attention.

notatoad 15y ago
they don't need to differentiate or get people's attention. they need to do what they're doing: provide a solid product, adhere to standards, and stay quiet and out of the way. a browser isn't supposed to grab attention, it's just supposed to be a tool to view websites on.
- dailycavalier 15y ago
  Mozilla full-time contributor here. I agree they need to do what they're doing - silent updates are super important for the product right now given the new release cycle. It's important that Mozilla does differentiate though. Firefox is the only browser that's made by a non-profit organization and puts your interests before business interests. Other browsers can't say that - they all have financial incentives and other agendas for you to use their product. Firefox provides choice so you have full control over your browsing experience.
  - jmathai 15y ago
    I wish more people understood the importance of what you just said. Not even the tech community seems to. Also, I presume the performance issues on OSX are a known issue. I'd love to read a plan for resolution for that. It can take 6 months, I'd feel better knowing it's a tangible goal that's being worked towards as opposed to "we're making improvements as we can". Lastly, thanks for contributing to Firefox.
- ootachi 15y ago
  Would you say Apple should do the same with iOS? iOS is flashy and in your face. And it's the most successful software product of the decade.

lini 15y ago

Call me paranoid, but after I read about this service I immediately started thinking what would happen if the browser was compromised - no UAC prompt and elevated privileges through the service...

dewiz 15y ago
the service could verify that the browser is constantly in a safe state monitoring file changes, SHAs, etc
ars 15y ago
I should hope the service does not use the browser to configure itself. It should directly contact mozilla servers including verifying some kind of encryption signature. So if anything it could mitigate a compromised browser by overwriting it with a good one.
sid0 15y ago
The service wouldn't give the browser elevated privileges. If you're worried about an update being compromised, then don't, since they're delivered over SSL and (I believe) are also signed separately.