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Full disclosure, I'm an insider in the industry. I'd like to comment on a few trends I've been seeing. First, ECUs are now running a general purpose OS rather

by bregma 5y ago

Full disclosure, I'm an insider in the industry. I'd like to comment on a few trends I've been seeing. First, ECUs are now running a general purpose OS rather than a single embedded application. That means compartmentalization of functionality into separate, restartable processes (a program crash is considered a safe failure mode), which is a very good thing. Most synchronization is performed at the low level by the safety-certified OS kernel using very well-known well-understood and well-tested mechanisms, so you don't have to worry about non-experts writing the bad C code so often lambasted in religious screeds. A big advantage is that the software components can be developed, tested, and verified in isolation all using proven-in-use techniquies on a development host before ever finding their way to a target system. The tradeoff is much higher overhead, which with todays processors is effectively noise that disappears into the background. Second, the CPUs are so fast that manufacturers have developed tickless mode in which most of the silicon gets put to sleep. ECUs these days do much much more nothing faster and in parallel. Things like bigLITTLE make it end up that only 1 32-bit core is actually doing anything almost all the time. So cheaper, less cost, but available when needed. Pretty much all of this is hidden by the OS, so don't worry about your storied ignorant C developer not understanding how to control their software. Third, somebody not close to the silicon but close to the ledger books looks at all this glorious CPU and memory on an ECU and realizes there are unused resources being paid for and going to waste. They realize they can stick logos on their product marketing material if they start using those spare resources for AI technologies. Yes folks, some of those ECUs are starting to crunch numbers using Fortran libraries driven by Python. From a consumer point of view it's great because the software can now make up for bad hardware dynamically, adaptively, and in real time. From a functional safety engineering point of view, as long as all hazards are mitigated and all failure modes lead to a safe state, it's not a bad thing. Yes, the silicon in control of your truck is getting bigger, wider, and faster is blooming multiple cores. The software development for it is taking advantage of 70 years of evolution to match. Sit back and enjoy the ride.

fundmondawyaya 5y ago
Many of the benefits that you list are for manufacturers, not consumers. My 1990s car has an ECU that only has one job, and runs fully-characterized code. I'd trust it to run another 25 years with no problems, firmware updates, or security patches. I do not trust something running a full-fledged OS to drive something safety-critical; I cannot imagine that the whole system is fully vetted, and I don't want bugs in the chip that is in charge of my engine. And now they're planning to run ML algorithms on the ECU to use all the extra compute that they never needed in the first place? That sounds like an absolute nightmare. Based on what you've written, I am very glad that I'll probably never buy a new ICE car ever again.
daniel-cussen 5y ago
> Third, somebody not close to the silicon but close to the ledger books looks at all this glorious CPU and memory on an ECU and realizes there are unused resources being paid for and going to waste. They realize they can stick logos on their product marketing material if they start using those spare resources for AI technologies. Yes folks, some of those ECUs are starting to crunch numbers using Fortran libraries driven by Python. From a consumer point of view it's great because the software can now make up for bad hardware dynamically, adaptively, and in real time. From a functional safety engineering point of view, as long as all hazards are mitigated and all failure modes lead to a safe state, it's not a bad thing. That's gross. Like that hardware uses no power, its purpose is to be at attention every foot of the journey. That's waiting, which in western culture means "slacking off", but in other cultures, like African cultures, is...well I don't know quite, but I think it's neither work nor rest. It's like going to a restaurant, you want the waiter to wait on you, you do your thing and when you need him he'll be ready. Maybe you'll need him often, or not even once. Doesn't matter, he still waited on you. Doesn't have to be moving all his arms and legs every second from the minute you walk in to the minute you leave, if he's ready to help when you need him, it's much more useful. Ultimately for tickless chips to be work there has to be a change in mentality that respects waiting as unique, that values availability without requiring effort. I guess it goes back to the idea in the west that values effort in different ways, rather than results. Effort meaning personal cost, too. Well when I was an employee I'd say they're both valued, equally, in the following way: you get paid according to the minimum of the two. Good results? Yeah but that only took you an hour, that only cost you $20, "don't complain." Working really hard but not achieving the goals? We're going to have to fire you and rehire at a lower wage that you can actually bring in. And that's why employees are so "resentful" about working, they're not, it's just an optimization function, if they're producing good value they have to look like they're working hard or there's a big cost to them of producing it, that's the resentful part, otherwise they get cheated. And further, it explains forfeiting results for the business all the time, if they're maxed out on the effort part they won't make a single fucking cent from it. Even if it costs nothing, bad idea, no working for free because then the floodgates of exploitation open. The employee does not want to work for an even richer, and therefore more powerful, employer if that employer is exploitative.
someweirdperson 5y ago
The "E" in ECU sometimes is eletronic and sometimes engine, depending on the sub-field and region of the automotive industry. For engine control (the topic of the original article) a general-purpose Os and lots of idle time are unusual. In many cases the most powerful controller available on the market is is filled with software just shy of losing tasks.

by bregma 5y ago

fundmondawyaya 5y ago

Many of the benefits that you list are for manufacturers, not consumers. My 1990s car has an ECU that only has one job, and runs fully-characterized code. I'd trust it to run another 25 years with no problems, firmware updates, or security patches. I do not trust something running a full-fledged OS to drive something safety-critical; I cannot imagine that the whole system is fully vetted, and I don't want bugs in the chip that is in charge of my engine. And now they're planning to run ML algorithms on the ECU to use all the extra compute that they never needed in the first place? That sounds like an absolute nightmare. Based on what you've written, I am very glad that I'll probably never buy a new ICE car ever again.

daniel-cussen 5y ago

> Third, somebody not close to the silicon but close to the ledger books looks at all this glorious CPU and memory on an ECU and realizes there are unused resources being paid for and going to waste. They realize they can stick logos on their product marketing material if they start using those spare resources for AI technologies. Yes folks, some of those ECUs are starting to crunch numbers using Fortran libraries driven by Python. From a consumer point of view it's great because the software can now make up for bad hardware dynamically, adaptively, and in real time. From a functional safety engineering point of view, as long as all hazards are mitigated and all failure modes lead to a safe state, it's not a bad thing. That's gross. Like that hardware uses no power, its purpose is to be at attention every foot of the journey. That's waiting, which in western culture means "slacking off", but in other cultures, like African cultures, is...well I don't know quite, but I think it's neither work nor rest. It's like going to a restaurant, you want the waiter to wait on you, you do your thing and when you need him he'll be ready. Maybe you'll need him often, or not even once. Doesn't matter, he still waited on you. Doesn't have to be moving all his arms and legs every second from the minute you walk in to the minute you leave, if he's ready to help when you need him, it's much more useful. Ultimately for tickless chips to be work there has to be a change in mentality that respects waiting as unique, that values availability without requiring effort. I guess it goes back to the idea in the west that values effort in different ways, rather than results. Effort meaning personal cost, too. Well when I was an employee I'd say they're both valued, equally, in the following way: you get paid according to the minimum of the two. Good results? Yeah but that only took you an hour, that only cost you $20, "don't complain." Working really hard but not achieving the goals? We're going to have to fire you and rehire at a lower wage that you can actually bring in. And that's why employees are so "resentful" about working, they're not, it's just an optimization function, if they're producing good value they have to look like they're working hard or there's a big cost to them of producing it, that's the resentful part, otherwise they get cheated. And further, it explains forfeiting results for the business all the time, if they're maxed out on the effort part they won't make a single fucking cent from it. Even if it costs nothing, bad idea, no working for free because then the floodgates of exploitation open. The employee does not want to work for an even richer, and therefore more powerful, employer if that employer is exploitative.

someweirdperson 5y ago

The "E" in ECU sometimes is eletronic and sometimes engine, depending on the sub-field and region of the automotive industry. For engine control (the topic of the original article) a general-purpose Os and lots of idle time are unusual. In many cases the most powerful controller available on the market is is filled with software just shy of losing tasks.