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Imagine thinking a car, a physical object that exists in a single space under one legal jurisdiction compares to a free and open source software protocol that h

Imagine thinking a car, a physical object that exists in a single space under one legal jurisdiction compares to a free and open source software protocol that has been running for 13 years in 100 countries.

lern_too_spel 5y ago
That protocol runs on computers owned by people who live in a legal jurisdiction. The protocol doesn't run in some parallel dimension. The people who run nodes are subject to laws, and the people who interact with nodes are subject to laws. You've been confused into thinking that laws can't apply to them merely because laws haven't yet been written to apply to them. Now that governments feel they have a reason to write these laws, the laws are being written. In the early years of the Internet, purchases on the Internet were not taxed. That does not mean they couldn't be taxed, despite what many people thought.
- randomhodler84 5y ago
  This meme forever: https://i.redd.it/ca4fwtln57h81.png https://i.redd.it/ca4fwtln57h81.png We live on different planets. I don’t think you even understand where I am coming from.
  - lern_too_spel 5y ago
    I don't think you understand how the law works ir how Bitcoin works. I clearly understand how Bitcoin works, having studied the protocol 10 years ago. Warren also clearly understands how Bitcoin works, having written the bill with Levien's help.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
Imnimo 5y ago
Neither its open source status nor the number of countries a piece of software is run in make its users immune to the law.
- randomhodler84 5y ago
  It’s not immunity, it is irrelevancy.
  - Imnimo 5y ago
    Somehow I'm not convinced that a technology that makes the global transaction log public and immutable for eternity makes government oversight "irrelevant".
    - randomhodler84 5y ago
      Ok, let me explain my position. This is not about making laws or government irrelevant. Of course a global transparent ledger of all transactions is beneficial to enforce sanctions, track criminals, etc. it is for this reason alone that playing with ideas like “we going to make it illegal to use Bitcoin unless you use this special module that enforces rule xyz” is just absurd. Senator Warren can no more make it illegal to run Bitcoin Core then force you to run BitcoinEW with new denylists daily. It is irrelevant that any politician or government doesn’t want bad guys to use it. They will. Of course the politicians and government will use this evidence trail to bring the bad guys to Justice. What is irrelevant is the wishes of one politician, one government. The software is. They can ignore it, they can use it for investigations, they can use it. The idea of rounding people up for using one version of software in a democracy is tyrannical! What this entire thread mess of madness was about was the idea that it would be illegal — if you touch 8333 or run the naughty international version that Senator Warren does not approve of, or run an unregistered node, or any other such insane fantasies is just dreams cos you don’t get what Satoshi was all about yet.
      - Imnimo 5y ago
        >if you touch 8333 or run the naughty international version that Senator Warren does not approve of, or run an unregistered node, or any other such insane fantasies is just dreams cos you don’t get what Satoshi was all about yet. I would say this is the wrong framing. If the law forbids transacting with Russia, it doesn't matter if you do those transactions by meeting up with a Russian agent in a dark alley, or by running a complex computer algorithm. If you choose to execute an algorithm which makes it difficult or impossible for you to tell if you are in violation of the law, you had better be certain that it also makes it impossible for the government to tell. If it does not, you're going to find yourself in trouble. It doesn't matter if you frame your activity as merely running open source code.

lern_too_spel 5y ago

That protocol runs on computers owned by people who live in a legal jurisdiction. The protocol doesn't run in some parallel dimension. The people who run nodes are subject to laws, and the people who interact with nodes are subject to laws. You've been confused into thinking that laws can't apply to them merely because laws haven't yet been written to apply to them. Now that governments feel they have a reason to write these laws, the laws are being written. In the early years of the Internet, purchases on the Internet were not taxed. That does not mean they couldn't be taxed, despite what many people thought.

randomhodler84 5y ago
This meme forever: https://i.redd.it/ca4fwtln57h81.png https://i.redd.it/ca4fwtln57h81.png We live on different planets. I don’t think you even understand where I am coming from.
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  I don't think you understand how the law works ir how Bitcoin works. I clearly understand how Bitcoin works, having studied the protocol 10 years ago. Warren also clearly understands how Bitcoin works, having written the bill with Levien's help.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

Imnimo 5y ago

Neither its open source status nor the number of countries a piece of software is run in make its users immune to the law.

randomhodler84 5y ago
It’s not immunity, it is irrelevancy.
- Imnimo 5y ago
  Somehow I'm not convinced that a technology that makes the global transaction log public and immutable for eternity makes government oversight "irrelevant".
  - randomhodler84 5y ago
    Ok, let me explain my position. This is not about making laws or government irrelevant. Of course a global transparent ledger of all transactions is beneficial to enforce sanctions, track criminals, etc. it is for this reason alone that playing with ideas like “we going to make it illegal to use Bitcoin unless you use this special module that enforces rule xyz” is just absurd. Senator Warren can no more make it illegal to run Bitcoin Core then force you to run BitcoinEW with new denylists daily. It is irrelevant that any politician or government doesn’t want bad guys to use it. They will. Of course the politicians and government will use this evidence trail to bring the bad guys to Justice. What is irrelevant is the wishes of one politician, one government. The software is. They can ignore it, they can use it for investigations, they can use it. The idea of rounding people up for using one version of software in a democracy is tyrannical! What this entire thread mess of madness was about was the idea that it would be illegal — if you touch 8333 or run the naughty international version that Senator Warren does not approve of, or run an unregistered node, or any other such insane fantasies is just dreams cos you don’t get what Satoshi was all about yet.
    - Imnimo 5y ago
      >if you touch 8333 or run the naughty international version that Senator Warren does not approve of, or run an unregistered node, or any other such insane fantasies is just dreams cos you don’t get what Satoshi was all about yet. I would say this is the wrong framing. If the law forbids transacting with Russia, it doesn't matter if you do those transactions by meeting up with a Russian agent in a dark alley, or by running a complex computer algorithm. If you choose to execute an algorithm which makes it difficult or impossible for you to tell if you are in violation of the law, you had better be certain that it also makes it impossible for the government to tell. If it does not, you're going to find yourself in trouble. It doesn't matter if you frame your activity as merely running open source code.