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If you're going to indiscriminately start beheading technology which uses energy why not start with vehicles, video games, machine learning, or anything at all

If you're going to indiscriminately start beheading technology which uses energy why not start with vehicles, video games, machine learning, or anything at all? Its because in order to ask whether something should use energy you must first ask whether its worth it, and your sophistication when it comes to crypto-currencies, finance, and economics is too weak to have that conversation: ergo, you resort to zero value, which is hilariously inept.

FridgeSeal 5y ago
Because vehicles bring value (transport people, food, resources, etc) and have energy optimisations (mass transit, electric, etc) because the energy use as a gatekeeper is not an inherent part of its functionality. I’d be shocked if video games as an industry outranked crypto for energy use. Even if we assume all gamers run their GPU’s at 100% the entire time they play games, miners will quickly dwarf the energy usage because games don’t play 24/7. Machine Learning is computationally expensive, but unlike crypto, is basically constantly trying to make their systems faster and more efficient all the time. Again-computation isn’t used as a gatekeeper here. There’s no “hash this pointlessly until enough work as been done so you can do x”, it’s just “do this work as quickly and efficiently as possible”. Things like TPU’s in ML aren’t a threat or arms race, they’re a net improvement. Crypto gets targeted for its energy use because it uses an insane amount of energy for even the most rudimentary functions. Even if current payment processors use the same amount of energy right now as crypto does, you have to consider the relative scales: those payment processors handle the vast, vast majority of payments with that energy; scaling current crypto up to that levels would bring its energy use to astronomical levels.
- benoketamad 5y ago
  Well, fiat money has no backing whatsoever. A while ago the USD was backed by gold, nowadays it is backed by faith, just like any other fiat currency. Let this sink in: crypto is money that is backed by energy. Finally a money that is backed by some tangible thing. The systems providing it might be suboptimal, but the basic premise, that this is finally backed by a universally accepted thing, energy, is absolutely perfect. Just like coal is concentrated sunlight, crypto money is concentrated energy. Thassal.
  - FridgeSeal 5y ago
    Unfortunately I think I'd still prefer to have the energy, rather than the imaginary internet tokens, because once again, at least the energy is...useful.
    - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
      Its comforting to know the loudest critics refuse to face facts. That is actually how I predicted the run up to the last bull market - when the critics resorted to old or ignorant arguments. Have you heard of Chesterton's Fence?
      - FridgeSeal 5y ago
        > That is actually how I predicted the run up to the last bull market That’s nice for you I guess? > Have you heard of Chesterton's Fence? I have, but this comes across as a slightly more sophisticated version of the fallback that’s often resorted to by defenders of crypto: if in doubt, claim that your opponents “simply don’t get it” or just proclaim “have fun being poor”. We understand crypto too, we’re just not convinced.
- mattwilsonn888 5y ago
  > Because vehicles bring value So you must now convince people why crypto does not bring value, which first requires coherently stating the argument for why it does - which most skeptics fail and which you have not attempted. > I'd be shocked if video games as an industry outranked crypto for energy use The point is that they use energy, and is that energy worth the benefit? No one brings that up when discussing climate - so an ignorance of the value crypto can bring must be the source rather than genuine bookkeeping on value vs. energy usage. If we are really cutting back than I don't see how most video games have any place in our electric grid. > Machine Learning is computationally expensive, but unlike crypto, is basically constantly trying to make their systems faster and more efficient all the time. Unlike crypto? This is why skeptics like you get ridiculed. Spending two days researching crypto will reveal that most of the market which isn't into simply holding Bitcoin and waiting or DeFi schemes is solely focused on making ledgers more efficient. > scaling current crypto up to that levels would bring its energy use to astronomical levels. Again raw ignorance of the technology, economics and logistics of it all drives your thinking. Layered, custodial approaches, PoS advancements and why that all works seem to be beyond what you understand about the space despite your persistent pontification about the direction it should be heading.
- jakupovic 5y ago
  Alm you're doing here is measuring what you think the benefits to the society are from cars vs bitcoin. Just because it is useless in your opinion does not make it so, and you should qualify your statements with, "in my opinion", rather than saying this with absolute conviction.
  - amon22 5y ago
    Crypto in it's current form is indeed useless.
    - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
      Not according to the market. What makes you think you can make such a claim in stark contrast (even if you believe a large portion is frivolous speculation) to the market?
      - FridgeSeal 5y ago
        “The market” as it currently operates in crypto is a greater fool scam, coupled with cryptos being deflationary, it’s not shocking that the price increases regardless of value.
    - jakupovic 5y ago
      "In my opinion", simple then your statement makes sense.

FridgeSeal 5y ago

Because vehicles bring value (transport people, food, resources, etc) and have energy optimisations (mass transit, electric, etc) because the energy use as a gatekeeper is not an inherent part of its functionality. I’d be shocked if video games as an industry outranked crypto for energy use. Even if we assume all gamers run their GPU’s at 100% the entire time they play games, miners will quickly dwarf the energy usage because games don’t play 24/7. Machine Learning is computationally expensive, but unlike crypto, is basically constantly trying to make their systems faster and more efficient all the time. Again-computation isn’t used as a gatekeeper here. There’s no “hash this pointlessly until enough work as been done so you can do x”, it’s just “do this work as quickly and efficiently as possible”. Things like TPU’s in ML aren’t a threat or arms race, they’re a net improvement. Crypto gets targeted for its energy use because it uses an insane amount of energy for even the most rudimentary functions. Even if current payment processors use the same amount of energy right now as crypto does, you have to consider the relative scales: those payment processors handle the vast, vast majority of payments with that energy; scaling current crypto up to that levels would bring its energy use to astronomical levels.

benoketamad 5y ago
Well, fiat money has no backing whatsoever. A while ago the USD was backed by gold, nowadays it is backed by faith, just like any other fiat currency. Let this sink in: crypto is money that is backed by energy. Finally a money that is backed by some tangible thing. The systems providing it might be suboptimal, but the basic premise, that this is finally backed by a universally accepted thing, energy, is absolutely perfect. Just like coal is concentrated sunlight, crypto money is concentrated energy. Thassal.
- FridgeSeal 5y ago
  Unfortunately I think I'd still prefer to have the energy, rather than the imaginary internet tokens, because once again, at least the energy is...useful.
  - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
    Its comforting to know the loudest critics refuse to face facts. That is actually how I predicted the run up to the last bull market - when the critics resorted to old or ignorant arguments. Have you heard of Chesterton's Fence?
    - FridgeSeal 5y ago
      > That is actually how I predicted the run up to the last bull market That’s nice for you I guess? > Have you heard of Chesterton's Fence? I have, but this comes across as a slightly more sophisticated version of the fallback that’s often resorted to by defenders of crypto: if in doubt, claim that your opponents “simply don’t get it” or just proclaim “have fun being poor”. We understand crypto too, we’re just not convinced.
mattwilsonn888 5y ago
> Because vehicles bring value So you must now convince people why crypto does not bring value, which first requires coherently stating the argument for why it does - which most skeptics fail and which you have not attempted. > I'd be shocked if video games as an industry outranked crypto for energy use The point is that they use energy, and is that energy worth the benefit? No one brings that up when discussing climate - so an ignorance of the value crypto can bring must be the source rather than genuine bookkeeping on value vs. energy usage. If we are really cutting back than I don't see how most video games have any place in our electric grid. > Machine Learning is computationally expensive, but unlike crypto, is basically constantly trying to make their systems faster and more efficient all the time. Unlike crypto? This is why skeptics like you get ridiculed. Spending two days researching crypto will reveal that most of the market which isn't into simply holding Bitcoin and waiting or DeFi schemes is solely focused on making ledgers more efficient. > scaling current crypto up to that levels would bring its energy use to astronomical levels. Again raw ignorance of the technology, economics and logistics of it all drives your thinking. Layered, custodial approaches, PoS advancements and why that all works seem to be beyond what you understand about the space despite your persistent pontification about the direction it should be heading.
jakupovic 5y ago
Alm you're doing here is measuring what you think the benefits to the society are from cars vs bitcoin. Just because it is useless in your opinion does not make it so, and you should qualify your statements with, "in my opinion", rather than saying this with absolute conviction.
- amon22 5y ago
  Crypto in it's current form is indeed useless.
  - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
    Not according to the market. What makes you think you can make such a claim in stark contrast (even if you believe a large portion is frivolous speculation) to the market?
    - FridgeSeal 5y ago
      “The market” as it currently operates in crypto is a greater fool scam, coupled with cryptos being deflationary, it’s not shocking that the price increases regardless of value.
  - jakupovic 5y ago
    "In my opinion", simple then your statement makes sense.