5 ms·

US, Aus, Canada, Japan, Morocco, New Zealand, Singapore, and S. Korea sign ACTA

124 points by bdhe 15y ago

mindstab 15y ago
well damnit
RexRollman 15y ago
From the article: "The Obama administration was claiming the accord was a "national security" secret." Could our government be any more disappointing?
- mindstab 15y ago
  You could have your Canadian government selling you out to a foreign country's corporations instead of your own corporations? :(
  - nkassis 15y ago
    If they'd just remove the circumvention device part from the new bill it wouldn't be so bad. But That thing never expires so even if the copyright does you still can't break them. That's infinite copyright in disguise.
- hartror 15y ago
  Well as an Australian I am pretty unhappy that our government is copying your government's stupid ideas. Which is more disappointing, someone jumping over a cliff or the person that follows them? :( I can only hope that this won't pass through our parliament successfully, there are a couple of fairly clued in left wing politicians holding the balance of power right now in Australia. But then again this seems like the type of thing both the major parties will rubber stamp with barely a raised eyebrow. Hey look mainstream Australia look that way, there are people on boats.
  - Joakal 15y ago
    They are doing it behind closed doors so Australians can't find out how it affects them. https://www.pirateparty.org.au/ https://www.pirateparty.org.au/
    - ra 15y ago
      Seems you're right... I can't find any parliament discussion on the subject: http://www.openaustralia.org/search/?s=+Anti-Counterfeiting http://www.openaustralia.org/search/?s=+Anti-Counterfeiting
- nextparadigms 15y ago
  And they wondered why people supported Wikileaks for sharing their "secrets", when everything they do is labeled top secret nowadays.
  - wnight 15y ago
    Thanks to Wikileaks, I don't think traditional government is possible. It probably never worked, but it certainly isn't now. Just government would require the death penalty for politicians who deal in secret. Until the citizens are actually the bosses we've merely got 'democratic' prisons.
- InclinedPlane 15y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious
1point2 15y ago
Key - that will be John Key (NZ) does seem to be smitten by the US. Please come back Helen (she knew what side the bread was buttered on). [edit - dropped the s's - thanx]
- fungi 15y ago
  i can see whats in it for the US... and korea and japan prominently consume indigenous media, so it's not going to be such a big deal for them... but aus and nz are massive importers of american media, wtf is in this for us antipodeans? do we get access to US agricultural markets in return or anything of any value whatsoever?
  - darylteo 15y ago
    You get to continue playing US deputy sheriff in the middle of nowhere? =)
- sharkbrainguy 15y ago
  I think you're referring to John Key. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Key http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Key
thisrod 15y ago
I thought Australia had already agreed to follow America's mistakes on copyright and patents, ten years ago, under the pretence of free trade. Has anything changed?
cletus 15y ago
Perhaps I've become cynical but before the 2008 election I (as a non-US citizen so I can't vote) strongly supported Obama, not because I necessarily agreed with his positions but because of the race situation in America. It's an understatement to say that African Americans between slavery, segregation and just general racism have had a torrid history in the United States. Honestly I can't imagine the consequences of what that kind of cultural heritage would do to you. Obama's election was seen by many as a symbol. Having the first African American president holding the highest office in the land was seen as (and is IMHO) a bellwether moment in American history. Had he lost I think there would've been a lot of anger (and there's already a lot of anger in American society), possibly even feelings of despair and being deprived (as a race). Whatever the case, it certainly seemed important. What I predicted would happen--and IMHO has happened--is that Obama as president has been deeply disappointing to many of his supporters. The US is still in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Obama administration is basically the political wing of the RIAA/MPAA between ACTA, federal judgeships, ex-RIAA lawyers filling the DoJ and so on. It has turned out to be worse than my own cynical predictions. Obama the candidate was great. He spoke frankly and intelligently whereas Hilary Clinton (and most others) would give bottled answers to questions that made it seemed like they were just going through the motions and, in many ways, felt entitled to the office. So what we have now is, I believe, a partial catharsis of race relations in America (which is good) and also the reality that politicians are politicians first and foremost, regardless of race or creed. As for ACTA, at least the stupid three strikes Internet stuff is gone but the treaty is still an embarrassment both in content and execution. It was negotiated in secret. So much for government openness. Thank God for Wikileaks (and similar). But I guess we can't call it a treaty. To do so would be a de facto admission that it requires Senate ratification. Instead words like "accord" and "agreement" are bandied about to dodge due process. Another embarrassment.
- SkyMarshal 15y ago
  The fundamental problem is that the extreme concentration of wealth in the US increases the power of industry groups like the recording industry, banking industry, oil, defense, etc. relative to the citizenry, and those groups capture and have their way wth the government. Obama had the most effective grassroots funding in US history, but even then it only made up ~half his campaign donations. The other half came from industry groups and wealthy individuals. But the latter not only fund campaigns, but hire high-powered lobbyists who were usually prior Congressional staff members, and also provide well-paid revolving door jobs, directorships, etc. for politicians when they leave office. Politicians are funded, courted, bribed, and basically controlled from their political life's cradle to grave. The entire system is almost completely captured. Unfortunately there are no wealthy special interests who particularly oppose ACTA, just segments of the populace, which don't have the financial clout to buy access to Congress or the President. Hence things like ACTA is the result, even with a president like Obama.
robinbourne 15y ago
Little bit of history, going back to 2008: President Bush signed into law legislation creating a copyright czar, a cabinet-level position on par with the nation’s drug czar http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/10/bush-signs-law/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/10/bush-signs-law/ MPAA Urges Obama to Embrace Internet Filtering http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/12/mpaa-urging-oba/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/12/mpaa-urging-oba/ Obama Administration Announces Massive Piracy Crackdown http://www.dailytech.com/Obama+Administration+Announces+Massive+Piracy+Crackdown/article18815.htm http://www.dailytech.com/Obama+Administration+Announces+Mass... Obama-administration: piracy is flat unadulterated theft http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/08/obama-administration-piracy-is-flat-unadulterated-theft.ars http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/08/obama-admini... U.S. to target foreign websites in anti-piracy push http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65L3YN20100622 http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65L3YN20100622
- SkyMarshal 15y ago
  Off topic linguistic nitpick, but does it ever irk anyone else that America refers to these people as 'Czar'? I assume the term is meant to imply absolute power to cut through red tape, prosecute a particular policy objective (drug war, etc.), and just get shit done which all Americans appreciate, but still, couldn't the 'land of the free' come up with a better term for our public servants than that used for deposed Russian authoritarian despots?
  - pivo 15y ago
    That really bothers me too. At best it's ignorant, at worst it's a grave portent.
- seclorum 15y ago
  You have to understand, this is a national security interest because the US isn't making much money these days, from anything other than exporting its intellectual property. What else does America export besides weapons of mass destruction, pharmaceuticals, and Hollywood? Not much, kids.
jrockway 15y ago
Wow, this is scary. The technology that the pirates will develop to trade files unnoticed, combined with anonymous payment systems like Bitcoin, mean that people in the business of child abuse will have it even easier than they already do. It's great to criminalize college students sharing mix tapes or whatever, but the side effects are what's really frightening. (Also, if we're going to fine someone $1.3MM for sharing music, shouldn't we just kill them instead? Their life is ruined either way, but a quick and painless death seems much more humane than spending 60 years living in poverty as a slave to the recording industry.) Won't someone please think of the children? (Do we really want to start fighting a losing War On Sharing alongside our War On Drugs, War On Liquids-on-planes, and War on Afghanistan? Can society afford another losing war?)
- scq 15y ago
  > Their life is ruined either way, but a quick and painless death seems much more humane than spending 60 years living in poverty as a slave to the recording industry. Can't they just file for bankruptcy?
  - JoshTriplett 15y ago
    In general you cannot discharge fines and similar judgments through bankruptcy; at best you can potentially arrange to pay it over the course of the rest of your life.
- wnight 15y ago
  What evidence do you have that there is a business of abusing children? This sounds like satanic cults in our daycares - froth and hysteria. Oh, fyi, we've been waging the war on society for a while now. It's in the form of unnecessary wars...
mcantelon 15y ago
Ever since the beginning, copyright was about protecting the interests of the powerful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Early_European_printers.27_monopoly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Early_European_printe...
nibor7301 15y ago
When will these idiots learn? I see this going down the same route the war on drugs has taken. Lots of harmless people going to prison, and very little success in actually stopping illicit activities. At least it seems unlikely to produce dangerous organized crime, as the prohibition and the war on drugs produced, but who knows? The better solution would be for companies that produce music/films/software/etc to revise their own buisness models and adapt to the reality of piracy. Heck, some companies, like Adobe for example, probably -profit- off their product being pirated. I much prefer the anti-ACTA. Overall, these days we probably need more protection from the companies, than they need from us.
- theoj 15y ago
  >> The better solution would be for companies that produce music/films/software/etc to revise their own business models and adapt to the reality of piracy. Adapting to the reality of piracy would probably mean lower prices. Why do that when they can just stick the government with the cost of enforcement and then keep prices high? Plus lobbying costs are a fraction of the enforcement costs. Not saying it's right, but unfortunately such is the perverse relationship between big business and government nowadays.
linuxhansl 15y ago
> Until European Union authorities began leaking the document’s text, the Obama administration was claiming the accord was a "national security" secret. I cannot even begin to express how much this disgusts me. This is the government that I fund with my tax dollars, that is supposed to work on my behalf. There should no operation in the dark. I hope Europe does not sign this nonsense, although I am not keeping my hopes up. The notion that "piracy" (even that word is the result of well oiled marketing campaign) will destroy the content makers (rather than the crappy, repetitive stuff they create) is widespread among politicians.
- gord 15y ago
  It strikes me as somewhat 1984-ish / Orwellian This is a trade agreement! I assume it has no provisions for 'extraordinary rendition' of mp3 downloaders ?
  - oelewapperke 15y ago
    Well it is. It is also how the EU is run. One of the provisions of EU membership is that international treaties have the same status -at least- of a country's constitution. The catch ? These agreements are made by the executive alone. In most European countries this is a well-established legal situation, and it has been applied to no end of sordid practices, from "bigamy" for unemployment checks (e.g. a muslim comes into the country, works for a week, gets fired, then he and his family have the right to unemployment. 20 women come in, are "married" to him (but also unofficially married to someone else) and all get permanent residency and unemployment), to not applying country constitutions, or laws to their own political officials, and now extending into copyright. No doubt software patents won't be far behind. But this is a way lots of unconstitutional laws have been applied in the EU (in a Belgian court decision in 2003 a judge agreed that, yes, the constitution states that no laws are in effect in Belgium except those voted on by (one of the) parliaments, but it was ruled that international treaties, like all EU directives override the constitution). Given the structure of the EU commission, this de-facto means the EU has the legal framework of a dictatorship (the EU commission is not elected) with a few local semi-democracies below it. It is my hope that the EU does fall apart.
- 15y ago
jduran 15y ago
From reading all the comments, i can see people in HN do not care about intellectual property.Go figure....
wnight 15y ago
I don't authorized my government to deal in secret. I never did and I especially wouldn't have since Wikileaks has shown us the crimes they commit. And to deal with the USA despite their ongoing wars, 'rendition' for torture, etc, is unconscionable, especially when done in secret and to enact unpopular treaties. Can we get some UN peacekeepers to help us enforce a democracy in Canada?

124 points by bdhe 15y ago

well damnit

From the article: "The Obama administration was claiming the accord was a "national security" secret." Could our government be any more disappointing?

mindstab 15y ago
You could have your Canadian government selling you out to a foreign country's corporations instead of your own corporations? :(
- nkassis 15y ago
  If they'd just remove the circumvention device part from the new bill it wouldn't be so bad. But That thing never expires so even if the copyright does you still can't break them. That's infinite copyright in disguise.
hartror 15y ago
Well as an Australian I am pretty unhappy that our government is copying your government's stupid ideas. Which is more disappointing, someone jumping over a cliff or the person that follows them? :( I can only hope that this won't pass through our parliament successfully, there are a couple of fairly clued in left wing politicians holding the balance of power right now in Australia. But then again this seems like the type of thing both the major parties will rubber stamp with barely a raised eyebrow. Hey look mainstream Australia look that way, there are people on boats.
- Joakal 15y ago
  They are doing it behind closed doors so Australians can't find out how it affects them. https://www.pirateparty.org.au/ https://www.pirateparty.org.au/
  - ra 15y ago
    Seems you're right... I can't find any parliament discussion on the subject: http://www.openaustralia.org/search/?s=+Anti-Counterfeiting http://www.openaustralia.org/search/?s=+Anti-Counterfeiting
nextparadigms 15y ago
And they wondered why people supported Wikileaks for sharing their "secrets", when everything they do is labeled top secret nowadays.
- wnight 15y ago
  Thanks to Wikileaks, I don't think traditional government is possible. It probably never worked, but it certainly isn't now. Just government would require the death penalty for politicians who deal in secret. Until the citizens are actually the bosses we've merely got 'democratic' prisons.
InclinedPlane 15y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious

1point2 15y ago

Key - that will be John Key (NZ) does seem to be smitten by the US. Please come back Helen (she knew what side the bread was buttered on). [edit - dropped the s's - thanx]

fungi 15y ago
i can see whats in it for the US... and korea and japan prominently consume indigenous media, so it's not going to be such a big deal for them... but aus and nz are massive importers of american media, wtf is in this for us antipodeans? do we get access to US agricultural markets in return or anything of any value whatsoever?
- darylteo 15y ago
  You get to continue playing US deputy sheriff in the middle of nowhere? =)
sharkbrainguy 15y ago
I think you're referring to John Key. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Key http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Key

thisrod 15y ago

I thought Australia had already agreed to follow America's mistakes on copyright and patents, ten years ago, under the pretence of free trade. Has anything changed?

cletus 15y ago

Perhaps I've become cynical but before the 2008 election I (as a non-US citizen so I can't vote) strongly supported Obama, not because I necessarily agreed with his positions but because of the race situation in America. It's an understatement to say that African Americans between slavery, segregation and just general racism have had a torrid history in the United States. Honestly I can't imagine the consequences of what that kind of cultural heritage would do to you. Obama's election was seen by many as a symbol. Having the first African American president holding the highest office in the land was seen as (and is IMHO) a bellwether moment in American history. Had he lost I think there would've been a lot of anger (and there's already a lot of anger in American society), possibly even feelings of despair and being deprived (as a race). Whatever the case, it certainly seemed important. What I predicted would happen--and IMHO has happened--is that Obama as president has been deeply disappointing to many of his supporters. The US is still in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Obama administration is basically the political wing of the RIAA/MPAA between ACTA, federal judgeships, ex-RIAA lawyers filling the DoJ and so on. It has turned out to be worse than my own cynical predictions. Obama the candidate was great. He spoke frankly and intelligently whereas Hilary Clinton (and most others) would give bottled answers to questions that made it seemed like they were just going through the motions and, in many ways, felt entitled to the office. So what we have now is, I believe, a partial catharsis of race relations in America (which is good) and also the reality that politicians are politicians first and foremost, regardless of race or creed. As for ACTA, at least the stupid three strikes Internet stuff is gone but the treaty is still an embarrassment both in content and execution. It was negotiated in secret. So much for government openness. Thank God for Wikileaks (and similar). But I guess we can't call it a treaty. To do so would be a de facto admission that it requires Senate ratification. Instead words like "accord" and "agreement" are bandied about to dodge due process. Another embarrassment.

SkyMarshal 15y ago
The fundamental problem is that the extreme concentration of wealth in the US increases the power of industry groups like the recording industry, banking industry, oil, defense, etc. relative to the citizenry, and those groups capture and have their way wth the government. Obama had the most effective grassroots funding in US history, but even then it only made up ~half his campaign donations. The other half came from industry groups and wealthy individuals. But the latter not only fund campaigns, but hire high-powered lobbyists who were usually prior Congressional staff members, and also provide well-paid revolving door jobs, directorships, etc. for politicians when they leave office. Politicians are funded, courted, bribed, and basically controlled from their political life's cradle to grave. The entire system is almost completely captured. Unfortunately there are no wealthy special interests who particularly oppose ACTA, just segments of the populace, which don't have the financial clout to buy access to Congress or the President. Hence things like ACTA is the result, even with a president like Obama.

robinbourne 15y ago

Little bit of history, going back to 2008: President Bush signed into law legislation creating a copyright czar, a cabinet-level position on par with the nation’s drug czar http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/10/bush-signs-law/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/10/bush-signs-law/ MPAA Urges Obama to Embrace Internet Filtering http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/12/mpaa-urging-oba/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/12/mpaa-urging-oba/ Obama Administration Announces Massive Piracy Crackdown http://www.dailytech.com/Obama+Administration+Announces+Massive+Piracy+Crackdown/article18815.htm http://www.dailytech.com/Obama+Administration+Announces+Mass... Obama-administration: piracy is flat unadulterated theft http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/08/obama-administration-piracy-is-flat-unadulterated-theft.ars http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/08/obama-admini... U.S. to target foreign websites in anti-piracy push http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65L3YN20100622 http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65L3YN20100622

SkyMarshal 15y ago
Off topic linguistic nitpick, but does it ever irk anyone else that America refers to these people as 'Czar'? I assume the term is meant to imply absolute power to cut through red tape, prosecute a particular policy objective (drug war, etc.), and just get shit done which all Americans appreciate, but still, couldn't the 'land of the free' come up with a better term for our public servants than that used for deposed Russian authoritarian despots?
- pivo 15y ago
  That really bothers me too. At best it's ignorant, at worst it's a grave portent.
seclorum 15y ago
You have to understand, this is a national security interest because the US isn't making much money these days, from anything other than exporting its intellectual property. What else does America export besides weapons of mass destruction, pharmaceuticals, and Hollywood? Not much, kids.

jrockway 15y ago

Wow, this is scary. The technology that the pirates will develop to trade files unnoticed, combined with anonymous payment systems like Bitcoin, mean that people in the business of child abuse will have it even easier than they already do. It's great to criminalize college students sharing mix tapes or whatever, but the side effects are what's really frightening. (Also, if we're going to fine someone $1.3MM for sharing music, shouldn't we just kill them instead? Their life is ruined either way, but a quick and painless death seems much more humane than spending 60 years living in poverty as a slave to the recording industry.) Won't someone please think of the children? (Do we really want to start fighting a losing War On Sharing alongside our War On Drugs, War On Liquids-on-planes, and War on Afghanistan? Can society afford another losing war?)

scq 15y ago
> Their life is ruined either way, but a quick and painless death seems much more humane than spending 60 years living in poverty as a slave to the recording industry. Can't they just file for bankruptcy?
- JoshTriplett 15y ago
  In general you cannot discharge fines and similar judgments through bankruptcy; at best you can potentially arrange to pay it over the course of the rest of your life.
wnight 15y ago
What evidence do you have that there is a business of abusing children? This sounds like satanic cults in our daycares - froth and hysteria. Oh, fyi, we've been waging the war on society for a while now. It's in the form of unnecessary wars...

mcantelon 15y ago

Ever since the beginning, copyright was about protecting the interests of the powerful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Early_European_printers.27_monopoly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright#Early_European_printe...

nibor7301 15y ago

When will these idiots learn? I see this going down the same route the war on drugs has taken. Lots of harmless people going to prison, and very little success in actually stopping illicit activities. At least it seems unlikely to produce dangerous organized crime, as the prohibition and the war on drugs produced, but who knows? The better solution would be for companies that produce music/films/software/etc to revise their own buisness models and adapt to the reality of piracy. Heck, some companies, like Adobe for example, probably -profit- off their product being pirated. I much prefer the anti-ACTA. Overall, these days we probably need more protection from the companies, than they need from us.

theoj 15y ago
>> The better solution would be for companies that produce music/films/software/etc to revise their own business models and adapt to the reality of piracy. Adapting to the reality of piracy would probably mean lower prices. Why do that when they can just stick the government with the cost of enforcement and then keep prices high? Plus lobbying costs are a fraction of the enforcement costs. Not saying it's right, but unfortunately such is the perverse relationship between big business and government nowadays.

linuxhansl 15y ago

> Until European Union authorities began leaking the document’s text, the Obama administration was claiming the accord was a "national security" secret. I cannot even begin to express how much this disgusts me. This is the government that I fund with my tax dollars, that is supposed to work on my behalf. There should no operation in the dark. I hope Europe does not sign this nonsense, although I am not keeping my hopes up. The notion that "piracy" (even that word is the result of well oiled marketing campaign) will destroy the content makers (rather than the crappy, repetitive stuff they create) is widespread among politicians.

gord 15y ago
It strikes me as somewhat 1984-ish / Orwellian This is a trade agreement! I assume it has no provisions for 'extraordinary rendition' of mp3 downloaders ?
- oelewapperke 15y ago
  Well it is. It is also how the EU is run. One of the provisions of EU membership is that international treaties have the same status -at least- of a country's constitution. The catch ? These agreements are made by the executive alone. In most European countries this is a well-established legal situation, and it has been applied to no end of sordid practices, from "bigamy" for unemployment checks (e.g. a muslim comes into the country, works for a week, gets fired, then he and his family have the right to unemployment. 20 women come in, are "married" to him (but also unofficially married to someone else) and all get permanent residency and unemployment), to not applying country constitutions, or laws to their own political officials, and now extending into copyright. No doubt software patents won't be far behind. But this is a way lots of unconstitutional laws have been applied in the EU (in a Belgian court decision in 2003 a judge agreed that, yes, the constitution states that no laws are in effect in Belgium except those voted on by (one of the) parliaments, but it was ruled that international treaties, like all EU directives override the constitution). Given the structure of the EU commission, this de-facto means the EU has the legal framework of a dictatorship (the EU commission is not elected) with a few local semi-democracies below it. It is my hope that the EU does fall apart.
15y ago

jduran 15y ago

From reading all the comments, i can see people in HN do not care about intellectual property.Go figure....

wnight 15y ago

I don't authorized my government to deal in secret. I never did and I especially wouldn't have since Wikileaks has shown us the crimes they commit. And to deal with the USA despite their ongoing wars, 'rendition' for torture, etc, is unconscionable, especially when done in secret and to enact unpopular treaties. Can we get some UN peacekeepers to help us enforce a democracy in Canada?