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There's much more the international community could do even without direct war. It should be possible to station troops in the West of country, thus freeing up

by yyyk 5y ago

There's much more the international community could do even without direct war. It should be possible to station troops in the West of country, thus freeing up Ukrainians to fight. If Putin wishes to attack them, than he'll be the one escalating. It would be not too different than Idlib, which hasn't led to massive war, with the exception the government will have invited these troops.

giraffe_lady 5y ago
Yes exactly where you want to be is sitting there watching the ICBMs fly saying "well I wasn't the one to escalate so."
- yyyk 5y ago
  Sure, we should act according to Putin's whims. So if Putin says 'do not help Ukraine or else' we stay. If Putin invades the Baltics, well, no ICBMs, right. If Putin nukes Ukraine we do nothing (no ICBMs right?). Can't we just surrender the world to him to stop these ICBMs? Good thing we didn't have this attitude during the Cold War. We can help, and we should not going to listen to a non-ultimatum which hasn't been even given.
  - giraffe_lady 5y ago
    We had exactly this attitude during the cold war lol. Nato's actions here are absolutely consistent with the principles of deterrence worked out during the cold war. There's a reason there were endless proxy wars, guerrilla trainings, and secret arms supplying back then. Neither side would risk a direct conflict with the other, so they did all that instead. You'll notice that's the exact same toolbox they're drawing on now. They didn't invent this shit for putin.
  - bluehorseray 5y ago
    That's basically the predicament the entire world has been in ever since the first nuke was developed. It's just that no nuclear power has quite passed a line that another nuclear power isn't willing to accept. If what you said above were to happen we're basically in uncharted territory. I'd step out on a limb and say maybe the best move is to let the aggressors take whatever they want, nobody really knows.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - Bancakes 5y ago
      By that logic, we can be counter aggressors and demand Russia leave.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- Bancakes 5y ago
  Stop believing the ICBM bluff.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
dh2022 5y ago
Putin already crossed that line - he has been bombing places in West Ukraine like Lviv and that training site for a couple of days now.
- yyyk 5y ago
  Putin has been bombing in the West, but there's no Russian troop presence anywhere nearby and he wouldn't dare bomb near an actual deployment of foreign troops.
  - pandaman 5y ago
    Do you mean regular army? Because Russian Airspace Force definitely has killed a few dozen foreign mercs (and presumably "military advisors") in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavoriv_military_base_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavoriv_military_base_attack
    - yyyk 5y ago
      I heard various casualty reports, doesn't really matter though. These are volunteers, with no official backing. Not the same as a true deployment. Apparently I'm not the only one thinking this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30730140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30730140
      - pandaman 5y ago
        I don't doubt a lot of people think the Western forces would be invulnerable to Russian fire and suggest even setting up a no-fly zone (i.e. engaging Russian military vessels). I don't see any rational basis for this belief though. Even Ukraine itself has not declared a war with Russia, what Western country would, in your opinion?
        yyyk 5y ago
        The legal basis for presence in the Ukraine would be no different from the legal basis for Russia's presence in Syria (except this government isn't in the habit of using WMDs against its own citizens). If Putin wants to commit suicide by being dumb, we can't stop him, but he should know an attack would end up badly (for the Russians). We can see they have difficulty with merely the regular Ukrainian army.
gruez 5y ago
>If Putin wishes to attack them, than he'll be the one escalating. So you want to send boots on the ground in ukraine. Presumably you also think doing so isn't escalatory. However, you also think if some of them get killed, it's putin that's escalating? That almost sounds like "if you get hit it's your own fault"[1] logic. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZSoJDUD_bU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZSoJDUD_bU

by yyyk 5y ago

giraffe_lady 5y ago

Yes exactly where you want to be is sitting there watching the ICBMs fly saying "well I wasn't the one to escalate so."

yyyk 5y ago
Sure, we should act according to Putin's whims. So if Putin says 'do not help Ukraine or else' we stay. If Putin invades the Baltics, well, no ICBMs, right. If Putin nukes Ukraine we do nothing (no ICBMs right?). Can't we just surrender the world to him to stop these ICBMs? Good thing we didn't have this attitude during the Cold War. We can help, and we should not going to listen to a non-ultimatum which hasn't been even given.
- giraffe_lady 5y ago
  We had exactly this attitude during the cold war lol. Nato's actions here are absolutely consistent with the principles of deterrence worked out during the cold war. There's a reason there were endless proxy wars, guerrilla trainings, and secret arms supplying back then. Neither side would risk a direct conflict with the other, so they did all that instead. You'll notice that's the exact same toolbox they're drawing on now. They didn't invent this shit for putin.
- bluehorseray 5y ago
  That's basically the predicament the entire world has been in ever since the first nuke was developed. It's just that no nuclear power has quite passed a line that another nuclear power isn't willing to accept. If what you said above were to happen we're basically in uncharted territory. I'd step out on a limb and say maybe the best move is to let the aggressors take whatever they want, nobody really knows.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Bancakes 5y ago
    By that logic, we can be counter aggressors and demand Russia leave.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
Bancakes 5y ago
Stop believing the ICBM bluff.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

dh2022 5y ago

Putin already crossed that line - he has been bombing places in West Ukraine like Lviv and that training site for a couple of days now.

yyyk 5y ago
Putin has been bombing in the West, but there's no Russian troop presence anywhere nearby and he wouldn't dare bomb near an actual deployment of foreign troops.
- pandaman 5y ago
  Do you mean regular army? Because Russian Airspace Force definitely has killed a few dozen foreign mercs (and presumably "military advisors") in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavoriv_military_base_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavoriv_military_base_attack
  - yyyk 5y ago
    I heard various casualty reports, doesn't really matter though. These are volunteers, with no official backing. Not the same as a true deployment. Apparently I'm not the only one thinking this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30730140 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30730140
    - pandaman 5y ago
      I don't doubt a lot of people think the Western forces would be invulnerable to Russian fire and suggest even setting up a no-fly zone (i.e. engaging Russian military vessels). I don't see any rational basis for this belief though. Even Ukraine itself has not declared a war with Russia, what Western country would, in your opinion?
      - yyyk 5y ago
        The legal basis for presence in the Ukraine would be no different from the legal basis for Russia's presence in Syria (except this government isn't in the habit of using WMDs against its own citizens). If Putin wants to commit suicide by being dumb, we can't stop him, but he should know an attack would end up badly (for the Russians). We can see they have difficulty with merely the regular Ukrainian army.

gruez 5y ago

>If Putin wishes to attack them, than he'll be the one escalating. So you want to send boots on the ground in ukraine. Presumably you also think doing so isn't escalatory. However, you also think if some of them get killed, it's putin that's escalating? That almost sounds like "if you get hit it's your own fault"[1] logic. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZSoJDUD_bU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZSoJDUD_bU