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I don't want to hear anyone in this country [the US] complain about the Electoral College or gerrymandering the next time we decide to pull another Iraq War but

I don't want to hear anyone in this country [the US] complain about the Electoral College or gerrymandering the next time we decide to pull another Iraq War but they're opposed to it. Just like, overthrow the government - it's so easy! And if you don't have the guts - well, don't be mad when someone deletes all your files, you collaborator!

scotty79 5y ago
Yes. Exactly. US citizens are responsible for that corrupt systems that there are in place there. And all the war profiteering those systems allowed. Many average Americans directly benefited from US wars as military employees and contractors.
- cartesius13 5y ago
  Average Americans most definitely benefited from US military shenanigans but that kinda besides the point here I think. The main point is that "just overthrow your government, bro" is not a thing people can go out and just do and these comments make it seem that they're negligent if they don't start doing it right now. "Just do it, bro. It's so easy"
  - diordiderot 5y ago
    The point of sanctions is to make doing nothing worse that doing something. If the USA was economically isolated as a result of it's invasion, I'd be willing to bet the iraq war would've finished much sooner
    - mardifoufs 5y ago
      If Americans were singled out by the entire world, forbidden from traveling and targeted by even the software the install it would have just led to much much more patriotism and unity. There is no better way to unite a divided group than to target it as a single entity. Makes it a lot easier to set aside your differences and a lot harder to dissent within your group. That's what happened after 9/11, no one paused to think what actions lead to that event or the geopolitical context. It just united every American overnight. In a way that already has happened in Russia. The sanctions did not lead to less (or more) support for the war. The initial sanctions were justified as they targeted the russian state, but the knee jerk reaction of also imposing sanctions that explicitly were aimed at the population lead to nothing but resentment against the west. Whether you are on the morally right side or not, it does not matter in that context; you cant really debate your way into convincing someone that you are doing something for his own good when you are doing everything you can to also make him suffer If the intention is just to hurt them for the war, then sure that will work as intended... but I think it's dishonest to pretend we are doing it for anything more "noble" than that
      - scotty79 5y ago
        Ok. So we should hug and support Russia in those difficult times and it will inevitably result in lowering Russian patriotism and becomming more westernized? Because we were trying to do for the last 3 decades and nothing like that happened. Russians are very patriotic and strongly support their government when it confronts the western world by bombing civilians. If nothing works I prefer to apply punishment in hopes that smart Russians emigrate and Russia will crumble. And yes, punishment should affect more civilised and smarter Russians too to either motivate them to clean up their country or leave it.
        mardifoufs 5y ago
        No, not at all. My only argument is that we can't pretend it's all just for their own good because it will make them finally see the light and get rid of their government. That's just not true, it won't happen and I think it's just something people say to themselves because they aren't comfortable with the reality that they are pushing for an entire civilian population to suffer. It's war, so again no moral judgment on that, but sugar-coating it is even worse than admitting the truth. A bit off topic but if you think the west was supporting and hugging russia or ukraine in the 1990s and 2000s, you might need to revisit how we got here.
        scotty79 5y ago
        It's for their own good because result of that is them getting out of dictatorship rather sooner than later. And it's a greater good than enjoying conveniences of life while living in a dictatorship.
        mardifoufs 5y ago
        Why would that result in changes in their political system? And sorry but your last sentence is clearly coming from a very... western perspective. It's only true until it's you actually face hardship. I'm sure for most people security is more important than ideology or freedom; even in the west we saw in the past 2 years that a huge chunk of the population was willing to trade pretty much any right or freedom in exchange for safety. There's just no need to pretend it's for their own good when it's trivially easy to prove that sanctions rarely lead to the end of a dictatorship. Just look at Cuba,Iran,NK or even venezuala.
- brandonmenc 5y ago
  > Many average Americans directly benefited from US wars as military employees and contractors. True, but the Iraq War was a net negative for the vast majority of Americans, even just financially.
  - fsckboy 5y ago
    no, not true at all in any meaningful sense. American taxpayers pay for the military budget; that some of that money comes back to some as wages does not on average mean that average Americans benefit.
    - scotty79 5y ago
      Not quite. Anerican corporations made a steal in Iraq. That country was robbed. And pushing America's economic interests like prolonging dollar as main currency of resource trade was huge benefit to every USA citizen because main USA export is the dollar. That's why USA van run deficit for decades and be the richest country on Earth.

scotty79 5y ago

Yes. Exactly. US citizens are responsible for that corrupt systems that there are in place there. And all the war profiteering those systems allowed. Many average Americans directly benefited from US wars as military employees and contractors.

cartesius13 5y ago
Average Americans most definitely benefited from US military shenanigans but that kinda besides the point here I think. The main point is that "just overthrow your government, bro" is not a thing people can go out and just do and these comments make it seem that they're negligent if they don't start doing it right now. "Just do it, bro. It's so easy"
- diordiderot 5y ago
  The point of sanctions is to make doing nothing worse that doing something. If the USA was economically isolated as a result of it's invasion, I'd be willing to bet the iraq war would've finished much sooner
  - mardifoufs 5y ago
    If Americans were singled out by the entire world, forbidden from traveling and targeted by even the software the install it would have just led to much much more patriotism and unity. There is no better way to unite a divided group than to target it as a single entity. Makes it a lot easier to set aside your differences and a lot harder to dissent within your group. That's what happened after 9/11, no one paused to think what actions lead to that event or the geopolitical context. It just united every American overnight. In a way that already has happened in Russia. The sanctions did not lead to less (or more) support for the war. The initial sanctions were justified as they targeted the russian state, but the knee jerk reaction of also imposing sanctions that explicitly were aimed at the population lead to nothing but resentment against the west. Whether you are on the morally right side or not, it does not matter in that context; you cant really debate your way into convincing someone that you are doing something for his own good when you are doing everything you can to also make him suffer If the intention is just to hurt them for the war, then sure that will work as intended... but I think it's dishonest to pretend we are doing it for anything more "noble" than that
    - scotty79 5y ago
      Ok. So we should hug and support Russia in those difficult times and it will inevitably result in lowering Russian patriotism and becomming more westernized? Because we were trying to do for the last 3 decades and nothing like that happened. Russians are very patriotic and strongly support their government when it confronts the western world by bombing civilians. If nothing works I prefer to apply punishment in hopes that smart Russians emigrate and Russia will crumble. And yes, punishment should affect more civilised and smarter Russians too to either motivate them to clean up their country or leave it.
      - mardifoufs 5y ago
        No, not at all. My only argument is that we can't pretend it's all just for their own good because it will make them finally see the light and get rid of their government. That's just not true, it won't happen and I think it's just something people say to themselves because they aren't comfortable with the reality that they are pushing for an entire civilian population to suffer. It's war, so again no moral judgment on that, but sugar-coating it is even worse than admitting the truth. A bit off topic but if you think the west was supporting and hugging russia or ukraine in the 1990s and 2000s, you might need to revisit how we got here.
        scotty79 5y ago
        It's for their own good because result of that is them getting out of dictatorship rather sooner than later. And it's a greater good than enjoying conveniences of life while living in a dictatorship.
        mardifoufs 5y ago
        Why would that result in changes in their political system? And sorry but your last sentence is clearly coming from a very... western perspective. It's only true until it's you actually face hardship. I'm sure for most people security is more important than ideology or freedom; even in the west we saw in the past 2 years that a huge chunk of the population was willing to trade pretty much any right or freedom in exchange for safety. There's just no need to pretend it's for their own good when it's trivially easy to prove that sanctions rarely lead to the end of a dictatorship. Just look at Cuba,Iran,NK or even venezuala.
brandonmenc 5y ago
> Many average Americans directly benefited from US wars as military employees and contractors. True, but the Iraq War was a net negative for the vast majority of Americans, even just financially.
- fsckboy 5y ago
  no, not true at all in any meaningful sense. American taxpayers pay for the military budget; that some of that money comes back to some as wages does not on average mean that average Americans benefit.
  - scotty79 5y ago
    Not quite. Anerican corporations made a steal in Iraq. That country was robbed. And pushing America's economic interests like prolonging dollar as main currency of resource trade was huge benefit to every USA citizen because main USA export is the dollar. That's why USA van run deficit for decades and be the richest country on Earth.