11 ms·

This is a sad thing for FOSS … why should developers from Russia be penalized for no reason of their own?

by quantum_state 5y ago

scotty79 5y ago
So they can get of their chairs and dethrone the dictator. It's kind of more important right now than writing software.
- brandonmenc 5y ago
  I don't want to hear anyone in this country [the US] complain about the Electoral College or gerrymandering the next time we decide to pull another Iraq War but they're opposed to it. Just like, overthrow the government - it's so easy! And if you don't have the guts - well, don't be mad when someone deletes all your files, you collaborator!
  - scotty79 5y ago
    Yes. Exactly. US citizens are responsible for that corrupt systems that there are in place there. And all the war profiteering those systems allowed. Many average Americans directly benefited from US wars as military employees and contractors.
    - cartesius13 5y ago
      Average Americans most definitely benefited from US military shenanigans but that kinda besides the point here I think. The main point is that "just overthrow your government, bro" is not a thing people can go out and just do and these comments make it seem that they're negligent if they don't start doing it right now. "Just do it, bro. It's so easy"
      - diordiderot 5y ago
        The point of sanctions is to make doing nothing worse that doing something. If the USA was economically isolated as a result of it's invasion, I'd be willing to bet the iraq war would've finished much sooner
        mardifoufs 5y ago
        If Americans were singled out by the entire world, forbidden from traveling and targeted by even the software the install it would have just led to much much more patriotism and unity. There is no better way to unite a divided group than to target it as a single entity. Makes it a lot easier to set aside your differences and a lot harder to dissent within your group. That's what happened after 9/11, no one paused to think what actions lead to that event or the geopolitical context. It just united every American overnight. In a way that already has happened in Russia. The sanctions did not lead to less (or more) support for the war. The initial sanctions were justified as they targeted the russian state, but the knee jerk reaction of also imposing sanctions that explicitly were aimed at the population lead to nothing but resentment against the west. Whether you are on the morally right side or not, it does not matter in that context; you cant really debate your way into convincing someone that you are doing something for his own good when you are doing everything you can to also make him suffer If the intention is just to hurt them for the war, then sure that will work as intended... but I think it's dishonest to pretend we are doing it for anything more "noble" than that
        scotty79 5y ago
        Ok. So we should hug and support Russia in those difficult times and it will inevitably result in lowering Russian patriotism and becomming more westernized? Because we were trying to do for the last 3 decades and nothing like that happened. Russians are very patriotic and strongly support their government when it confronts the western world by bombing civilians. If nothing works I prefer to apply punishment in hopes that smart Russians emigrate and Russia will crumble. And yes, punishment should affect more civilised and smarter Russians too to either motivate them to clean up their country or leave it.
    - brandonmenc 5y ago
      > Many average Americans directly benefited from US wars as military employees and contractors. True, but the Iraq War was a net negative for the vast majority of Americans, even just financially.
      - fsckboy 5y ago
        no, not true at all in any meaningful sense. American taxpayers pay for the military budget; that some of that money comes back to some as wages does not on average mean that average Americans benefit.
        scotty79 5y ago
        Not quite. Anerican corporations made a steal in Iraq. That country was robbed. And pushing America's economic interests like prolonging dollar as main currency of resource trade was huge benefit to every USA citizen because main USA export is the dollar. That's why USA van run deficit for decades and be the richest country on Earth.
- croes 5y ago
  Dethroning nowadays needs software. No arabian spring without messengers. People like Putin don't need software but people who oppose him do.
- ridiculous_leke 5y ago
  Not sure if that will motivate them to dethrone the dictator. But this will most likely impact their work and may as well make them more nationalist in the process. And at the same time open source's reputation suffers in the process.
- handoflixue 5y ago
  Why should someone be obliged solely due to where they were born? I'm sure there are many incredibly competent de-throners in Europe, surely they should also get out of their chairs and help?
  - scotty79 5y ago
    Ukrainians already dethroned their corrupt system of power. Every post-communist county did that on their own. It can be done. So Russians can do it too. They just need proper motivation. And that motivation for countries that did that was abject poverty that made the people realise that course change is needed.
    - vogre 5y ago
      >Ukrainians already dethroned their corrupt system of power. No they haven't https://ti-ukraine.org/en/news/no-progress-ukraine-s-result-in-the-corruption-perceptions-index-2021/ https://ti-ukraine.org/en/news/no-progress-ukraine-s-result-...
      - scotty79 5y ago
        What does that supposed to prove? They got rid of Russia sponsored corrupt dictators, had a bit of politicsl turmoil after that. They got their first good president in 2019. Then there was pandemics that raised the level of corruption in nearly all countries. Especially those weaker in that department. And you are going to judge what system of power Ukraine has based on 2021 datapoint? How quickly did your country got rid of corruption that plagued it? It's a process that just stars with replacing corrupt system of power. You need to adjust whole public sector after that. It can take decades.
  - sergeykish 5y ago
    Because that's their state, their responsibility. And it has happened before in USSR/Russian Empire, hunger is a key.
jollybean 5y ago
Why do you think we are sanctioning Russia? To degrade their ability to project war in Ukraine. 'Russian Developers' are material to the development of the Russian economy, which is the basis for which the war is projected. Sanctions could very well spread into software in which FOSS would likely be a part of it, and the terms of the licensing may not really matter. It's for the same reason that Intel, Nvidia and a host of others have dropped shipments, at least for the time being.
- exizt88 5y ago
  By that logic, any harm to any Russians, even those living outside of Russia but e.g. sending money back home, would also negatively affect the development of the Russian economy. How far would you follow that logic? Which Russians should be harmed, in your opinion, and how much?
  - diordiderot 5y ago
    Sending money to Russia as remittances, by anyone, should be banned, end of story. No need to harm 'ethnic or cultural' Russians Just Russian citizens with wealth or those insidevthe legal jurisdiction of Russia.
    - AlfeG 5y ago
      Why not ban Saudi for bombing Yemen? Or torture Bush administration and anyone who voted or supported them?
      - 0xdeadb00f 5y ago
        To answer your first question: Oil.
    - exizt88 5y ago
      I think that's a different logic from what the comment that I was replying to was trying to convey. BTW, you should know that sending money to Russia is almost an impossibility as it is. For example, living in Russia, I couldn't accept a consulting job from Kazakhstan because we couldn't figure out a way for them to pay me.
vkou 5y ago
Same reason that you shoot at enemy conscripts in a war, drop bombs on enemy cities. Same reason why Russia is now being subjected to sanctions. To undermine the Russian economy in a non-violent manner. Whether or not it results in political change is irrelevant - a crippled Russia is a sufficient end all in itself, just like dead soldiers are a sufficient end all in itself during a war. Wars rarely end with a government being overthrown, but they do often end when a government decides that peace is the better option. Bombed cities, dead soldiers, and starving children are the calculus that pushes governments towards making that decision.
- hda2 5y ago
  > shoot at enemy conscripts But most Russians affected by these aren't shooting back. They aren't conscripts or have anything to do with the war (doubly so now that sanctions are in effect). Shooting at solders trying to hurt you is one thing, but that's not what's happening here.
  - vkou 5y ago
    No, but all of them contribute to Russia's economy. And that war effort can't happen without a functioning economy.
    - hda2 5y ago
      This line of thinking leads to bombing schools and hospitals. This is how we get war crimes. I'm glad most people don't think the way you do.
      - vkou 5y ago
        Then you should be happy that we're talking about refusing to cooperate in economic activity, instead of bombing schools and hospitals. Me refusing to transact with you isn't a war crime.
        hda2 5y ago

This is a sad thing for FOSS … why should developers from Russia be penalized for no reason of their own?

scotty79 5y ago

So they can get of their chairs and dethrone the dictator. It's kind of more important right now than writing software.

brandonmenc 5y ago
I don't want to hear anyone in this country [the US] complain about the Electoral College or gerrymandering the next time we decide to pull another Iraq War but they're opposed to it. Just like, overthrow the government - it's so easy! And if you don't have the guts - well, don't be mad when someone deletes all your files, you collaborator!
- scotty79 5y ago
  Yes. Exactly. US citizens are responsible for that corrupt systems that there are in place there. And all the war profiteering those systems allowed. Many average Americans directly benefited from US wars as military employees and contractors.
  - cartesius13 5y ago
    Average Americans most definitely benefited from US military shenanigans but that kinda besides the point here I think. The main point is that "just overthrow your government, bro" is not a thing people can go out and just do and these comments make it seem that they're negligent if they don't start doing it right now. "Just do it, bro. It's so easy"
    - diordiderot 5y ago
      The point of sanctions is to make doing nothing worse that doing something. If the USA was economically isolated as a result of it's invasion, I'd be willing to bet the iraq war would've finished much sooner
      - mardifoufs 5y ago
        If Americans were singled out by the entire world, forbidden from traveling and targeted by even the software the install it would have just led to much much more patriotism and unity. There is no better way to unite a divided group than to target it as a single entity. Makes it a lot easier to set aside your differences and a lot harder to dissent within your group. That's what happened after 9/11, no one paused to think what actions lead to that event or the geopolitical context. It just united every American overnight. In a way that already has happened in Russia. The sanctions did not lead to less (or more) support for the war. The initial sanctions were justified as they targeted the russian state, but the knee jerk reaction of also imposing sanctions that explicitly were aimed at the population lead to nothing but resentment against the west. Whether you are on the morally right side or not, it does not matter in that context; you cant really debate your way into convincing someone that you are doing something for his own good when you are doing everything you can to also make him suffer If the intention is just to hurt them for the war, then sure that will work as intended... but I think it's dishonest to pretend we are doing it for anything more "noble" than that
        scotty79 5y ago
        Ok. So we should hug and support Russia in those difficult times and it will inevitably result in lowering Russian patriotism and becomming more westernized? Because we were trying to do for the last 3 decades and nothing like that happened. Russians are very patriotic and strongly support their government when it confronts the western world by bombing civilians. If nothing works I prefer to apply punishment in hopes that smart Russians emigrate and Russia will crumble. And yes, punishment should affect more civilised and smarter Russians too to either motivate them to clean up their country or leave it.
  - brandonmenc 5y ago
    > Many average Americans directly benefited from US wars as military employees and contractors. True, but the Iraq War was a net negative for the vast majority of Americans, even just financially.
    - fsckboy 5y ago
      no, not true at all in any meaningful sense. American taxpayers pay for the military budget; that some of that money comes back to some as wages does not on average mean that average Americans benefit.
      - scotty79 5y ago
        Not quite. Anerican corporations made a steal in Iraq. That country was robbed. And pushing America's economic interests like prolonging dollar as main currency of resource trade was huge benefit to every USA citizen because main USA export is the dollar. That's why USA van run deficit for decades and be the richest country on Earth.
croes 5y ago
Dethroning nowadays needs software. No arabian spring without messengers. People like Putin don't need software but people who oppose him do.
ridiculous_leke 5y ago
Not sure if that will motivate them to dethrone the dictator. But this will most likely impact their work and may as well make them more nationalist in the process. And at the same time open source's reputation suffers in the process.
handoflixue 5y ago
Why should someone be obliged solely due to where they were born? I'm sure there are many incredibly competent de-throners in Europe, surely they should also get out of their chairs and help?
- scotty79 5y ago
  Ukrainians already dethroned their corrupt system of power. Every post-communist county did that on their own. It can be done. So Russians can do it too. They just need proper motivation. And that motivation for countries that did that was abject poverty that made the people realise that course change is needed.
  - vogre 5y ago
    >Ukrainians already dethroned their corrupt system of power. No they haven't https://ti-ukraine.org/en/news/no-progress-ukraine-s-result-in-the-corruption-perceptions-index-2021/ https://ti-ukraine.org/en/news/no-progress-ukraine-s-result-...
    - scotty79 5y ago
      What does that supposed to prove? They got rid of Russia sponsored corrupt dictators, had a bit of politicsl turmoil after that. They got their first good president in 2019. Then there was pandemics that raised the level of corruption in nearly all countries. Especially those weaker in that department. And you are going to judge what system of power Ukraine has based on 2021 datapoint? How quickly did your country got rid of corruption that plagued it? It's a process that just stars with replacing corrupt system of power. You need to adjust whole public sector after that. It can take decades.
- sergeykish 5y ago
  Because that's their state, their responsibility. And it has happened before in USSR/Russian Empire, hunger is a key.

jollybean 5y ago

Why do you think we are sanctioning Russia? To degrade their ability to project war in Ukraine. 'Russian Developers' are material to the development of the Russian economy, which is the basis for which the war is projected. Sanctions could very well spread into software in which FOSS would likely be a part of it, and the terms of the licensing may not really matter. It's for the same reason that Intel, Nvidia and a host of others have dropped shipments, at least for the time being.

exizt88 5y ago
By that logic, any harm to any Russians, even those living outside of Russia but e.g. sending money back home, would also negatively affect the development of the Russian economy. How far would you follow that logic? Which Russians should be harmed, in your opinion, and how much?
- diordiderot 5y ago
  Sending money to Russia as remittances, by anyone, should be banned, end of story. No need to harm 'ethnic or cultural' Russians Just Russian citizens with wealth or those insidevthe legal jurisdiction of Russia.
  - AlfeG 5y ago
    Why not ban Saudi for bombing Yemen? Or torture Bush administration and anyone who voted or supported them?
    - 0xdeadb00f 5y ago
      To answer your first question: Oil.
  - exizt88 5y ago
    I think that's a different logic from what the comment that I was replying to was trying to convey. BTW, you should know that sending money to Russia is almost an impossibility as it is. For example, living in Russia, I couldn't accept a consulting job from Kazakhstan because we couldn't figure out a way for them to pay me.

vkou 5y ago

Same reason that you shoot at enemy conscripts in a war, drop bombs on enemy cities. Same reason why Russia is now being subjected to sanctions. To undermine the Russian economy in a non-violent manner. Whether or not it results in political change is irrelevant - a crippled Russia is a sufficient end all in itself, just like dead soldiers are a sufficient end all in itself during a war. Wars rarely end with a government being overthrown, but they do often end when a government decides that peace is the better option. Bombed cities, dead soldiers, and starving children are the calculus that pushes governments towards making that decision.

hda2 5y ago
> shoot at enemy conscripts But most Russians affected by these aren't shooting back. They aren't conscripts or have anything to do with the war (doubly so now that sanctions are in effect). Shooting at solders trying to hurt you is one thing, but that's not what's happening here.
- vkou 5y ago
  No, but all of them contribute to Russia's economy. And that war effort can't happen without a functioning economy.
  - hda2 5y ago
    This line of thinking leads to bombing schools and hospitals. This is how we get war crimes. I'm glad most people don't think the way you do.
    - vkou 5y ago
      Then you should be happy that we're talking about refusing to cooperate in economic activity, instead of bombing schools and hospitals. Me refusing to transact with you isn't a war crime.
      - hda2 5y ago