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It works out to approximately the same thing in terms of the outcome of the invasion.
by thow16161 5y ago
It works out to approximately the same thing in terms of the outcome of the invasion.
- nine_k 5y agoNot pushing the world really close to a nuclear war also counts, in the eyes of those who think that a direct involvement of NATO would trigger the MAD scenario.
- ceejayoz 5y agoUkraine would be in substantially worse straits if NATO hadn't been helping with training the last few years, and providing thousands upon thousands of modern antitank and antiair missiles. I don't think Ukraine would benefit from Russia and NATO coming to blows.
- crateless 5y agoAre we now admitting that NATO was in Ukraine? I thought that was verboten.
- WJW 5y agoNATO is not "in" Ukraine with troops, they are supplying weapons to Ukraine. This is not exactly a secret, it's all over the news.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y agoNATO soldiers have been conducting training operations in Ukraine since the Crimea takeover.
- yyyk 5y agoI recall these soldiers were evacuated just before the war. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/12/uk-troops-sent-to-help-train-ukrainian-army-to-leave-country-this-weekend https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/12/uk-troops-se...
- stjohnswarts 5y agoRussian soldiers have been helping rebels and openly fighting in east Ukraine for years as well. Let's not act like Russia didn't start the need for this.
- tobltobs 5y ago
- ceejayoz 5y agoNATO has been training Ukrainian troops openly for years. Seems to be paying off, too. https://www.mil.gov.ua/en/news/2019/09/30/new-ukrainian-brigade-will-be-trained-by-nato-instructor-within-operation-orbital”/ https://www.mil.gov.ua/en/news/2019/09/30/new-ukrainian-brig... They are not in Ukraine participating in combat in the current conflict.
- gattilorenz 5y agoI suggest reading back your own past comments for a quick reality check: > There is basically no escalation from Russia. [...]. It is just convenient (Biden's domestic issues/Nordstream 2/other unknown reasons) to claim imminent invasion and the media is incentivised to fuel that narrative since it seems to have captured the attention of the populace at large (perhaps based on the Russophobia that is prevalent in mainstream media). Maybe it's time to be extra aware of your own biases against Russia, NATO, mainstream media...
- crateless 5y agoI was wrong. I admit that. I spoke from a position of superficial knowledge at the time as I ignored the wider context of the situation and was commenting from a position of received wisdom as I was unaware of what a parent post mentioned regarding a widely known fact that NATO was in Ukraine providing thousands of weapons, I was not aware of that and was only commenting on the basis of "received wisdom" on a particular situation. I have examined my bias against mainstream media and still find them completely warranted, thank you.
- macintux 5y agoSo you're implying that NATO providing defensive weapons to Ukraine is the reason Putin invaded? That seems a stretch.
- crateless 5y agoNo, I am saying that I had not taken Russia's threat model into account. Given that threat model, Ukraine is an existential issue for them and the resolution of the uncertainty that has been in place since 2004 was just a matter of time.
- mediumsmart 5y ago
- macintux 5y ago
- dh2022 5y agoUkraine would be in substantially better straits if NATO told upfront everyone (including Ukraine and Russia) the Ukraine will not be part of NATO. The biggest country in NATO does not want to enforce no-fly zone and does not want to give planes to Ukraine. When will Ukraine wise up that they will never be part of NATO? US is bleeding Russia as much as possible, Ukrainian suffering be damned. (Putin fell head-first into the biggest geo-political trap in the last 30 years. Similar in size with Vietnam and Afganistan traps).
- brimble 5y ago> The biggest country in NATO does not want to enforce no-fly zone and does not want to give planes to Ukraine. You can replace "enforce a no-fly zone" with "declare actual war on Russia". A no-fly zone either involves striking targets in Russia and Belarus, or hands the initiative to Russia if/when an air war starts. It is a very bad idea, to put it mildly.
- dh2022 5y agoI guess my point was not clear. I meant to say this: 1. Ukraine will never join NATO, and NATO knew this 2. NATO encouraged Ukraine to ask for NATO integration knowing (since Dec 2021) Russia will not stand for it, 3. Russia invades Ukraine and US supports Ukraine with weapons, 4. Russia will spend money, lives, international standing, etc...; 5. US will profit (your enemy's loss is your profit); 6. Ukraine will be burned to the ground. If NATO told Ukraine from the onset they will never join NATO steps 2 and 3 would not have happened. Which means step 6 would not have happened. [edit - a typo in the numbers in events sequence. Sorry about that]
- ceejayoz 5y ago> If NATO told Ukraine from the onset they will never join NATO steps 2 and 3 would not have happened. Look, if I murder my neighbor because they’re friends with the other neighbor I hate, I’m the bad guy. Russia does not get to tell other countries they aren’t permitted to ally with each other.
- stjohnswarts 5y agoI wish NATO countries would send so many antitank and antiaircraft military equipment that the Ukrainians would push back and say "hold up we have enough for now" . Why are we being so slow to send them military equipment? It's a lot cheaper now than when Russia invades a NATO country and the gloves come off.