5 ms·

> Serious question? Which intelligent people think this war is a good thing? Not a lot. Unfortunately, Russia's doing it anyway.

morpheos137 5y ago
If you are at an ATM at night and somebody draws gun on you and says "Your money or your life." Do you (a) not take them seriously and argue about how theft is immoral on principle (b) scream and yell hoping to attract attention (c) give up some money to live another day? Sometimes stupidly standing on principle or not taking your counter party seriously can be very costly. In Sun Tzu's art of war where does it say to become so immersed in your own propaganda that you ignore reality?
- simplyaccont 5y ago
  in this case "stupidly standing on principle" it's trying to keep Ukraine as sovereign state and not be absorbed to be part of Russia. The costs are high, but independence wars are rarely cheap
- brimble 5y ago
  Dude you outed yourself when you referred to Ukraine as Russia's "home turf". I guess I shouldn't point this out so I don't help, but, you're being way too obvious to be effective, unless this is actually some kind of pro-Ukraine reverse-troll designed to get us to respond to you with anti-Russian posts (in which case, you're doing fine, I suppose). [EDIT] oh and this: > What I find perplexing is how our leadership class in Washington could be so dumb to pick a fight with no possible upside. Even if the rest of your post was entirely serious and even if all the other points were valid, this is nuts. If the West did force this war on purpose, holy shit has it ever been the greatest victory for cynical realpolitik ever. Russia's decline has been accelerated by a couple decades, at least. No possible upside? In what universe?
  - morpheos137 5y ago
    How has Russia's decline been accelerated by Washington stupidity? In what dimension? On Twitter or CNN? Let me know when NATO is marching across Siberia. Because in the real world what matters is real resources. I am sure Russia has its own problems but the idea that Washington/London is the eternal capital of a world empire and that China and India and the Gulf Arabs and the former European colonies in Africa will just roll over to go against their own interests to support the almighty paper dollar seems ridiculous to me.
    - brimble 5y ago
      > I am sure Russia has its own problems but the idea that Washington/London is the eternal capital of a world empire and that China and India and the Gulf Arabs and the former European colonies in Africa will just roll over to go against their own interests to support the almighty paper dollar seems ridiculous to me. Oh, of course not. The future is probably Chinese and African (largely Nigerian). Maybe Indian. Only way the back half of this century isn't the beginning of another long stretch of Chinese dominance is if they totally fuck it up.
    - Ma8ee 5y ago
      What kind of outcome can you think of where Russia's economy isn't pushed back at least 30 years? Fighting wars over natural resources haven't made sense in more than hundred years. They are such small part of the global economy, and the cost of land grabs and long term occupation is way too expensive. So NATO doesn't need to march across Siberia. If there isn't a regime change, Russia is going to end up like North Korea. Isolated, desperately poor, and except that they have some nukes, ignored and irrelevant.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    > If the West did force this war on purpose, holy shit has it ever been the greatest victory for cynical realpolitik ever. There's a huge middle ground that consists of various levels unnecessary antagonization and dismissal of the associated risks. We have to be able to criticize the choices and policies that pushed us in this direction without facing a blanket assumption that we are endorsing or trying to justify Putin's actions.
    - brimble 5y ago
      Oh, there's definitely room to analyze and criticize the broader moves and policies that've been made by the "West" here. No doubt. And I doubt anyone imagined this particular outcome.
- zoomablemind 5y ago
  > ... (c) give up some money to live another day? The Crimea in 2014 sure does not count in your recount. How would you deal with a bully that feels he's got a free reign over you?
- j4yav 5y ago
  Good question! What do you do when he starts showing up every day asking for more and more, given you are such easy pickings?
- Ma8ee 5y ago
  When someone with a gun asks for the content of your wallet, you give it to them, and make sure you aren't unarmed next time you meet. When someone is trying to drag you away to enslave or rape you, you fight with everything you got.

morpheos137 5y ago

If you are at an ATM at night and somebody draws gun on you and says "Your money or your life." Do you (a) not take them seriously and argue about how theft is immoral on principle (b) scream and yell hoping to attract attention (c) give up some money to live another day? Sometimes stupidly standing on principle or not taking your counter party seriously can be very costly. In Sun Tzu's art of war where does it say to become so immersed in your own propaganda that you ignore reality?

simplyaccont 5y ago
in this case "stupidly standing on principle" it's trying to keep Ukraine as sovereign state and not be absorbed to be part of Russia. The costs are high, but independence wars are rarely cheap
brimble 5y ago
Dude you outed yourself when you referred to Ukraine as Russia's "home turf". I guess I shouldn't point this out so I don't help, but, you're being way too obvious to be effective, unless this is actually some kind of pro-Ukraine reverse-troll designed to get us to respond to you with anti-Russian posts (in which case, you're doing fine, I suppose). [EDIT] oh and this: > What I find perplexing is how our leadership class in Washington could be so dumb to pick a fight with no possible upside. Even if the rest of your post was entirely serious and even if all the other points were valid, this is nuts. If the West did force this war on purpose, holy shit has it ever been the greatest victory for cynical realpolitik ever. Russia's decline has been accelerated by a couple decades, at least. No possible upside? In what universe?
- morpheos137 5y ago
  How has Russia's decline been accelerated by Washington stupidity? In what dimension? On Twitter or CNN? Let me know when NATO is marching across Siberia. Because in the real world what matters is real resources. I am sure Russia has its own problems but the idea that Washington/London is the eternal capital of a world empire and that China and India and the Gulf Arabs and the former European colonies in Africa will just roll over to go against their own interests to support the almighty paper dollar seems ridiculous to me.
  - brimble 5y ago
    > I am sure Russia has its own problems but the idea that Washington/London is the eternal capital of a world empire and that China and India and the Gulf Arabs and the former European colonies in Africa will just roll over to go against their own interests to support the almighty paper dollar seems ridiculous to me. Oh, of course not. The future is probably Chinese and African (largely Nigerian). Maybe Indian. Only way the back half of this century isn't the beginning of another long stretch of Chinese dominance is if they totally fuck it up.
  - Ma8ee 5y ago
    What kind of outcome can you think of where Russia's economy isn't pushed back at least 30 years? Fighting wars over natural resources haven't made sense in more than hundred years. They are such small part of the global economy, and the cost of land grabs and long term occupation is way too expensive. So NATO doesn't need to march across Siberia. If there isn't a regime change, Russia is going to end up like North Korea. Isolated, desperately poor, and except that they have some nukes, ignored and irrelevant.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  > If the West did force this war on purpose, holy shit has it ever been the greatest victory for cynical realpolitik ever. There's a huge middle ground that consists of various levels unnecessary antagonization and dismissal of the associated risks. We have to be able to criticize the choices and policies that pushed us in this direction without facing a blanket assumption that we are endorsing or trying to justify Putin's actions.
  - brimble 5y ago
    Oh, there's definitely room to analyze and criticize the broader moves and policies that've been made by the "West" here. No doubt. And I doubt anyone imagined this particular outcome.
zoomablemind 5y ago
> ... (c) give up some money to live another day? The Crimea in 2014 sure does not count in your recount. How would you deal with a bully that feels he's got a free reign over you?
j4yav 5y ago
Good question! What do you do when he starts showing up every day asking for more and more, given you are such easy pickings?
Ma8ee 5y ago
When someone with a gun asks for the content of your wallet, you give it to them, and make sure you aren't unarmed next time you meet. When someone is trying to drag you away to enslave or rape you, you fight with everything you got.