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Looking at these photos, I think we (NATO) should intervene with troops and air support. For all the cries of "never again", we just sit on our hands and watch

Looking at these photos, I think we (NATO) should intervene with troops and air support. For all the cries of "never again", we just sit on our hands and watch a Hitler like dictator destroy a neighboring country in a territorial war. Its clear Russia's army is a paper tiger, and I doubt Putin has the balls to use nukes.

true_religion 5y ago
Hitler is reviled for the Holocaust, not merely invading another country in a war of conquest. This whole situation is depressing and frustrating all around, but I don’t think anyone is being hypocritical.
- yks 5y ago
  War of conquest became taboo after WW2, written down in the UN chapter. The concept of "crimes against peace" itself was ironically invented by Soviets.
- thow16161 5y ago
  I was specifically referring to Hitler's territorial expansion prior to WWII. Putin's expansion into Crimea and Ukraine reminds me very much of Hitler's expansion into Austria and Czechoslovakia. Its my firm belief that we're at the "Peace in our time" phase, just before WWIII, and it would be better to nip it in the bud and take action now, rather than 2 years from now, when Putin has had more time to prepare, and he attempts to invade a country that we are obligated by treaty to defend.
  - jltsiren 5y ago
    That comparison does not make sense. Russia is not the USSR of old or Germany in the 30s. It's not a great economic power with an independent industrial base. Right now, Putin is throwing in all the conventional forces he can spare, but Ukraine – a smaller and poorer country - has managed to stop the attack with some material support from the West. Meanwhile, the rest of the world has not been idle. Europe is increasing military spending significantly. Unprecedented sanctions are in place, and their purpose is to destroy Russian economy and cut their access to many key technologies. If the sanctions remain in place, a large part of the Russian losses in Ukraine will be permanent.
- qsdf38100 5y ago
  We might well be in 1939, when hitler had not yet done the holocaust. The comparison seems fair to me. Who knows what Putin would be capable of if he kept on going full tyrant for another 3 years…
- yyyk 5y ago
  The allies fought Germany because they had no choice - the Nazis basically declared war on the world. Yet the Holocaust is very much a post-facto justification. At the time, the allies did nothing to impede the Holocaust, and it played very little part in their justifications (just watch 'Why we fight' and check where it's mentioned - nowhere). Only after WW2 the allies decided to remember the Holocaust existed, and justice still played a second fiddle to interests.
- xdennis 5y ago
  Hitler was reviled for everything he did, not just the Holocaust. The Allies didn't even know about the true extent of the Holocaust until they started liberating concentration camps in 1945.
gruez 5y ago
>I doubt Putin has the balls to use nukes. That's a very bold claim to make. What is that based on?
- yks 5y ago
  He does not have balls to sit close to his top generals and cronies.
- Giorgi 5y ago
  It is based on Turkey shooting down Russian jet without any consequences.
  - gruez 5y ago
    It's one thing to shoot down a russian jet that was allegedly flying into turkish airspace (despite the kremlin claiming otherwise). It's a whole other thing to declare a no-fly zone above ukraine and actively shooting down jets.
    - emteycz 5y ago
      Why Turkey can defend its airspace and Ukraine can't do the same together with its international partners, in a manner similar to EU airspace protection for example?
      - gruez 5y ago
        You're not arguing against an impartial observer. You're arguing against putin. You seriously think that putin is going to be persuaded by this type of lawyering? I think even to a layperson it's fairly obvious that the two represents two very different actions, and very different levels of escalation when it comes to their relations.
        Giorgi 5y ago
        Putin did nothing when Russian jet was shot down.
throw7576521 5y ago
Gladly its not you to decide that, as sad as the situation is. And also as sad as it is, the Hitler comparison is still inappropriate in both directions, please refrain for dignity.
- maxlamb 5y ago
  I think OP is referring to 1939 Hitler, i.e. invaded countries and clearly doesn’t care about killing civilians, but before the Holocaust. It’s clear from the last couple of weeks that Putin doesn’t even flinch at the thought of killing thousands of innocent civilians just to satisfy his own twisted reality.
- feoren 5y ago
  Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia and the international community did essentially nothing about it. It both emboldened him for further invasions, and provided him a huge manufacturing power to pump out tanks and armaments. If the international community said "Hell no, we're defending Czechoslovakia on principle because that invasion is BS", they would have fought a much weaker Germany and very likely prevented WWII (or at least one nearly as bad). Frankly I don't see how you can argue that's not an extremely apt comparison.
andrewflnr 5y ago
"Balls" have little to do with it. It looks to me like the invasion of Ukraine was the act of a desperate old man whose time is running out to achieve his ambitions, and a mistake based on wishful thinking rather than a sober assessment of relative military capability and popular sentiment of the two countries. This is not a man you can trust to be rational. We should assume he will continue to act out of pride and delusion. If he thinks he doesn't have anything left to lose, we should assume nukes are on the table.
- maxlamb 5y ago
  Unfortunately with that logic then we will never push back against Russia. Putin invades Poland? “Oh we shouldn’t attack because Putin is irrational and might use Nukes, we’ll try appeasement first.” This interview with exiled Russian M. Khodorkovski (who used to be the richest guy in Russia until Putin jailed him for 10 years) is pretty convincing that this fear makes the “West” look weak to Putin and he’ll keep pushing until he’s stopped. https://youtu.be/OX6ISz0FotU https://youtu.be/OX6ISz0FotU
  - Trasmatta 5y ago
    Poland is a NATO member, and an invasion would be treated entirely differently because of that.
  - nine_k 5y ago
    Poland is a NATO member, so invading it would trigger a really massive response of all treaty members to which NATO has been preparing since 1970s at least. Ukraine is being beaten exactly because it is not a NATO member, but actively considered to become one.
    - maxlamb 5y ago
      Exactly, but then why doesn’t NATO just start a massive response now to save the lives of potentially tens of thousands of Ukrainians that may die in the next few weeks?

true_religion 5y ago

Hitler is reviled for the Holocaust, not merely invading another country in a war of conquest. This whole situation is depressing and frustrating all around, but I don’t think anyone is being hypocritical.

yks 5y ago
War of conquest became taboo after WW2, written down in the UN chapter. The concept of "crimes against peace" itself was ironically invented by Soviets.
thow16161 5y ago
I was specifically referring to Hitler's territorial expansion prior to WWII. Putin's expansion into Crimea and Ukraine reminds me very much of Hitler's expansion into Austria and Czechoslovakia. Its my firm belief that we're at the "Peace in our time" phase, just before WWIII, and it would be better to nip it in the bud and take action now, rather than 2 years from now, when Putin has had more time to prepare, and he attempts to invade a country that we are obligated by treaty to defend.
- jltsiren 5y ago
  That comparison does not make sense. Russia is not the USSR of old or Germany in the 30s. It's not a great economic power with an independent industrial base. Right now, Putin is throwing in all the conventional forces he can spare, but Ukraine – a smaller and poorer country - has managed to stop the attack with some material support from the West. Meanwhile, the rest of the world has not been idle. Europe is increasing military spending significantly. Unprecedented sanctions are in place, and their purpose is to destroy Russian economy and cut their access to many key technologies. If the sanctions remain in place, a large part of the Russian losses in Ukraine will be permanent.
qsdf38100 5y ago
We might well be in 1939, when hitler had not yet done the holocaust. The comparison seems fair to me. Who knows what Putin would be capable of if he kept on going full tyrant for another 3 years…
yyyk 5y ago
The allies fought Germany because they had no choice - the Nazis basically declared war on the world. Yet the Holocaust is very much a post-facto justification. At the time, the allies did nothing to impede the Holocaust, and it played very little part in their justifications (just watch 'Why we fight' and check where it's mentioned - nowhere). Only after WW2 the allies decided to remember the Holocaust existed, and justice still played a second fiddle to interests.
xdennis 5y ago
Hitler was reviled for everything he did, not just the Holocaust. The Allies didn't even know about the true extent of the Holocaust until they started liberating concentration camps in 1945.

gruez 5y ago

>I doubt Putin has the balls to use nukes. That's a very bold claim to make. What is that based on?

yks 5y ago
He does not have balls to sit close to his top generals and cronies.
Giorgi 5y ago
It is based on Turkey shooting down Russian jet without any consequences.
- gruez 5y ago
  It's one thing to shoot down a russian jet that was allegedly flying into turkish airspace (despite the kremlin claiming otherwise). It's a whole other thing to declare a no-fly zone above ukraine and actively shooting down jets.
  - emteycz 5y ago
    Why Turkey can defend its airspace and Ukraine can't do the same together with its international partners, in a manner similar to EU airspace protection for example?
    - gruez 5y ago
      You're not arguing against an impartial observer. You're arguing against putin. You seriously think that putin is going to be persuaded by this type of lawyering? I think even to a layperson it's fairly obvious that the two represents two very different actions, and very different levels of escalation when it comes to their relations.
      - Giorgi 5y ago
        Putin did nothing when Russian jet was shot down.

throw7576521 5y ago

Gladly its not you to decide that, as sad as the situation is. And also as sad as it is, the Hitler comparison is still inappropriate in both directions, please refrain for dignity.

maxlamb 5y ago
I think OP is referring to 1939 Hitler, i.e. invaded countries and clearly doesn’t care about killing civilians, but before the Holocaust. It’s clear from the last couple of weeks that Putin doesn’t even flinch at the thought of killing thousands of innocent civilians just to satisfy his own twisted reality.
feoren 5y ago
Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia and the international community did essentially nothing about it. It both emboldened him for further invasions, and provided him a huge manufacturing power to pump out tanks and armaments. If the international community said "Hell no, we're defending Czechoslovakia on principle because that invasion is BS", they would have fought a much weaker Germany and very likely prevented WWII (or at least one nearly as bad). Frankly I don't see how you can argue that's not an extremely apt comparison.

andrewflnr 5y ago

"Balls" have little to do with it. It looks to me like the invasion of Ukraine was the act of a desperate old man whose time is running out to achieve his ambitions, and a mistake based on wishful thinking rather than a sober assessment of relative military capability and popular sentiment of the two countries. This is not a man you can trust to be rational. We should assume he will continue to act out of pride and delusion. If he thinks he doesn't have anything left to lose, we should assume nukes are on the table.

maxlamb 5y ago
Unfortunately with that logic then we will never push back against Russia. Putin invades Poland? “Oh we shouldn’t attack because Putin is irrational and might use Nukes, we’ll try appeasement first.” This interview with exiled Russian M. Khodorkovski (who used to be the richest guy in Russia until Putin jailed him for 10 years) is pretty convincing that this fear makes the “West” look weak to Putin and he’ll keep pushing until he’s stopped. https://youtu.be/OX6ISz0FotU https://youtu.be/OX6ISz0FotU
- Trasmatta 5y ago
  Poland is a NATO member, and an invasion would be treated entirely differently because of that.
- nine_k 5y ago
  Poland is a NATO member, so invading it would trigger a really massive response of all treaty members to which NATO has been preparing since 1970s at least. Ukraine is being beaten exactly because it is not a NATO member, but actively considered to become one.
  - maxlamb 5y ago
    Exactly, but then why doesn’t NATO just start a massive response now to save the lives of potentially tens of thousands of Ukrainians that may die in the next few weeks?