4 ms·

How exactly is it inherently adversarial? Isn’t what you’re saying also true to literally any for profit transaction?

giraffe_lady 5y ago
Only things that are absolute needs. You can walk away from a profitable transaction, you can't walk away from one you'll die without. People are willing to take much more extreme action around housing (and food, medicine, ) than they are most other goods. They're also less likely to agree there is moral justification in profiting from these things. So even when entering these transactions (they must, after all), they may not respect the other party's profit goals.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  Should doctors work for free? Should farmers?
  - giraffe_lady 5y ago
    Do landlords labor?
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      Yes? Do you think the house magically takes care of itself?
      - giraffe_lady 5y ago
        This comment made me see red, seriously the maddest I've been in weeks. You couldn't have known that and I'm not upset at you. _I_ take care of the house in this situation. The landlord doesn't shovel snow or mow grass, I do. They do carry some of the burden specifically in taxes and liability, yes I know. I also know the maintenance responsibilities aren't inherently and legally mine, and so I can be blamed for entering a contract that requires me to do this. Anyway though it even more shows that landlords don't inherently do anything. If they stopped maintaining it, the tenant is the one who has to live in the shitty house and will wind up fixing it. What the landlord does is control access to housing. I don't respect or value that and you're not going to change my mind about it today.
        robertlagrant 5y ago
        > you're not going to change my mind about it today Probably not worth asking the question in the first place, then.
        endisneigh 5y ago
        If you honestly believe being a landlord is such a slam dunk you should take out a mortgage, buy a property somewhere in United States (there are places as cheap as $50K) and rake in the cash. There are landlords who absolutely take care of all of the maintenance - and of course there are landlords who are absentee landlords as well. To say a landlord inherently doesn't do anything is the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Thanks for the laugh. As for your situation, stop doing work the landlord should be doing.
        sobkas 5y ago
        > If you honestly believe being a landlord is such a slam dunk you should take out a mortgage, buy a property somewhere in United States (there are places as cheap as $50K) and rake in the cash. I'm sorry, but I am not sociopathic enough to profit from other people misfortune (not being able to to buy a roof over their heads). Not everything is about making as much money as you can squeeze from other people.
        endisneigh 5y ago
        You don’t personally need to be. If it’s free money why hasn’t someone done it? Why are there houses sitting there vacant? I also disagree with the silly assertion that landlords are sociopaths would you rather people be homeless? If someone is unable to afford to buy a house what should they do? Also - are business owners sociopaths? Doctors? Farmers? Medical device makers?
        sobkas 5y ago
        > You don’t personally need to be. If it’s free money why hasn’t someone done it? Why are there houses sitting there vacant? I have seen some articles that it starts happening there too. For example buying houses in Detroit, through web of shell firms and sitting on them like some kind of slumlord dragon. >I also disagree with the silly assertion that landlords are sociopaths would you rather people be homeless? If someone is unable to afford to buy a house what should they do? I'm sorry, if you are using your economical advantage to outbid people in house market and then propose this people a rent that is higher than mortage on same house? With bonus points for squeezing them on rent so they can't save money to buy their own house(with or without mortage). Then use all that money to buy even more houses? So even more people can't afford them? Yes that a sociopathic behavior. Also word slumlord exists for a reason. >Also - are business owners sociopaths? Doctors? Farmers? Medical device makers? Are you trying to make argument for me? Because under capitalism only function of business is to make money for shareholders(aka. owners, this include companies not publicly traded). It's as sociopathic as it can be. If your only goal is to make more money, you are not a good person. There are owners that don't do that, but in the end they will have more disadvantages when competing with ones that do. It involves breaking the law/shady behavior if you think you can get away with that. Leaving money on the table is a sure way to get yourself a competitor that will take it and use it against you. Farmers: there are decent ones, but if they want to squeez as much money they can from animals/crops they have, they will do some horrific stuff. Just ask yourself why there are laws popping all over the US that make it illegal to film whats going on farms(including factory ones) Doctors: there are decent ones, as always. But there are doctors that will just come by during medical procedures in, in-network hospitals as out of the network doctor and then slam patient with horrendous bill, just for being there(or helping in some small way). Shilling to pharma companies by prescribing/overprescribing their drugs? To have a fun trip to Hawaii/other perks? Dr. Wakefield, crooks that sell bleach as cure all drug, other scam artist in white gowns? Selling dewormer as a cure for anything but worms? As I said before there are decent doctors, but also a bad ones. It's only a problem if we allow them to do this stuff and don't take any actions to stop them. Medical device makers: Have you read anything about EpiPen? P-value hacking? Pushing your do nothing failed drug as hope for sick people through FDA/etc.? This entities are businesses, their goal is to make money. Accidentally they can save some people, but it's not their goal. It's money. I have wrote some words about it earlier. So sociopathy isn't who you are, it's what you do. I'm not saying I'm a good person, I'm definitely not, but even I sometimes raise an eyebrow seeing things some people do.
    - tomp 5y ago
      Do business owners labor? As someone who's moved around a lot (to London, then to Zürich) I definitely appreciate being able to rent, and hence landowners. Without them, I'd have to live 2-3 year homeless until I saved enough for a downpayment, then be saddled with 30 year monthly commitment (i.e. mortgage) and unable to move anywhere else.
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      No, but they certainly have provided or paid for previously paid capital that allowed housing to be build. Ofc, it might be better if everyone build their own houses like some slums around the world.
    - quesera 5y ago
      > Do landlords labor? Yes they absolutely do. Sometimes quite a lot, and often invisibly to tenants. But other landlords suck, yes definitely. Just like some business owners neglect their customers, and some parents neglect their children. The problem is that the RE market is so distorted right now that it's difficult to select a new equivalent housing provider at a reasonable price. This is also what enables the bad landlords in the first place. The blame for that situation is very well-distributed. The best response as a buyer might be to seek out other markets.

Only things that are absolute needs. You can walk away from a profitable transaction, you can't walk away from one you'll die without. People are willing to take much more extreme action around housing (and food, medicine, ) than they are most other goods. They're also less likely to agree there is moral justification in profiting from these things. So even when entering these transactions (they must, after all), they may not respect the other party's profit goals.

endisneigh 5y ago
Should doctors work for free? Should farmers?
- giraffe_lady 5y ago
  Do landlords labor?
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    Yes? Do you think the house magically takes care of itself?
    - giraffe_lady 5y ago
      This comment made me see red, seriously the maddest I've been in weeks. You couldn't have known that and I'm not upset at you. _I_ take care of the house in this situation. The landlord doesn't shovel snow or mow grass, I do. They do carry some of the burden specifically in taxes and liability, yes I know. I also know the maintenance responsibilities aren't inherently and legally mine, and so I can be blamed for entering a contract that requires me to do this. Anyway though it even more shows that landlords don't inherently do anything. If they stopped maintaining it, the tenant is the one who has to live in the shitty house and will wind up fixing it. What the landlord does is control access to housing. I don't respect or value that and you're not going to change my mind about it today.
      - robertlagrant 5y ago
        > you're not going to change my mind about it today Probably not worth asking the question in the first place, then.
      - endisneigh 5y ago
        If you honestly believe being a landlord is such a slam dunk you should take out a mortgage, buy a property somewhere in United States (there are places as cheap as $50K) and rake in the cash. There are landlords who absolutely take care of all of the maintenance - and of course there are landlords who are absentee landlords as well. To say a landlord inherently doesn't do anything is the most ridiculous thing I've read today. Thanks for the laugh. As for your situation, stop doing work the landlord should be doing.
        sobkas 5y ago
        > If you honestly believe being a landlord is such a slam dunk you should take out a mortgage, buy a property somewhere in United States (there are places as cheap as $50K) and rake in the cash. I'm sorry, but I am not sociopathic enough to profit from other people misfortune (not being able to to buy a roof over their heads). Not everything is about making as much money as you can squeeze from other people.
        endisneigh 5y ago
        You don’t personally need to be. If it’s free money why hasn’t someone done it? Why are there houses sitting there vacant? I also disagree with the silly assertion that landlords are sociopaths would you rather people be homeless? If someone is unable to afford to buy a house what should they do? Also - are business owners sociopaths? Doctors? Farmers? Medical device makers?
        sobkas 5y ago
        > You don’t personally need to be. If it’s free money why hasn’t someone done it? Why are there houses sitting there vacant? I have seen some articles that it starts happening there too. For example buying houses in Detroit, through web of shell firms and sitting on them like some kind of slumlord dragon. >I also disagree with the silly assertion that landlords are sociopaths would you rather people be homeless? If someone is unable to afford to buy a house what should they do? I'm sorry, if you are using your economical advantage to outbid people in house market and then propose this people a rent that is higher than mortage on same house? With bonus points for squeezing them on rent so they can't save money to buy their own house(with or without mortage). Then use all that money to buy even more houses? So even more people can't afford them? Yes that a sociopathic behavior. Also word slumlord exists for a reason. >Also - are business owners sociopaths? Doctors? Farmers? Medical device makers? Are you trying to make argument for me? Because under capitalism only function of business is to make money for shareholders(aka. owners, this include companies not publicly traded). It's as sociopathic as it can be. If your only goal is to make more money, you are not a good person. There are owners that don't do that, but in the end they will have more disadvantages when competing with ones that do. It involves breaking the law/shady behavior if you think you can get away with that. Leaving money on the table is a sure way to get yourself a competitor that will take it and use it against you. Farmers: there are decent ones, but if they want to squeez as much money they can from animals/crops they have, they will do some horrific stuff. Just ask yourself why there are laws popping all over the US that make it illegal to film whats going on farms(including factory ones) Doctors: there are decent ones, as always. But there are doctors that will just come by during medical procedures in, in-network hospitals as out of the network doctor and then slam patient with horrendous bill, just for being there(or helping in some small way). Shilling to pharma companies by prescribing/overprescribing their drugs? To have a fun trip to Hawaii/other perks? Dr. Wakefield, crooks that sell bleach as cure all drug, other scam artist in white gowns? Selling dewormer as a cure for anything but worms? As I said before there are decent doctors, but also a bad ones. It's only a problem if we allow them to do this stuff and don't take any actions to stop them. Medical device makers: Have you read anything about EpiPen? P-value hacking? Pushing your do nothing failed drug as hope for sick people through FDA/etc.? This entities are businesses, their goal is to make money. Accidentally they can save some people, but it's not their goal. It's money. I have wrote some words about it earlier. So sociopathy isn't who you are, it's what you do. I'm not saying I'm a good person, I'm definitely not, but even I sometimes raise an eyebrow seeing things some people do.
  - tomp 5y ago
    Do business owners labor? As someone who's moved around a lot (to London, then to Zürich) I definitely appreciate being able to rent, and hence landowners. Without them, I'd have to live 2-3 year homeless until I saved enough for a downpayment, then be saddled with 30 year monthly commitment (i.e. mortgage) and unable to move anywhere else.
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    No, but they certainly have provided or paid for previously paid capital that allowed housing to be build. Ofc, it might be better if everyone build their own houses like some slums around the world.
  - quesera 5y ago
    > Do landlords labor? Yes they absolutely do. Sometimes quite a lot, and often invisibly to tenants. But other landlords suck, yes definitely. Just like some business owners neglect their customers, and some parents neglect their children. The problem is that the RE market is so distorted right now that it's difficult to select a new equivalent housing provider at a reasonable price. This is also what enables the bad landlords in the first place. The blame for that situation is very well-distributed. The best response as a buyer might be to seek out other markets.