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I believe batteries and electric motors can replace almost all applications of gas engines. However, diesel engines still are a step too far now IMO. Most peopl

I believe batteries and electric motors can replace almost all applications of gas engines. However, diesel engines still are a step too far now IMO. Most people have never operated a diesel engine. Their efficiency is very impressive. My 7,000 lbs truck with a Cummins diesel engine gets better MPGs than my partner's 4,000 lbs Mini Cooper Countryman.

danans 5y ago
> Most people have never operated a diesel engine. Their efficiency is very impressive. All else equal (vehicle class, size, performance, driving style), the operating cost per mile of an EV is 1/4 to 1/2 the operating cost per mile of a diesel or gasoline vehicle, even in states with very expensive electricity like California or Hawaii.
- ilikeatari 5y ago
  Is there a specific data set you are referencing? How about other components like Ownership and Support?
  - danans 5y ago
    I've just done the math on my car operating costs. At today's gas prices (admittedly high due to the Ukraine war), the price of electricity in CA would have to more than triple for me to pay the same as I would for gas. Before the recent gas price spike it was like 2.25X to use gas. > How about other components like Ownership and Support? Do you mean depreciation and maintenance? Depreciation on recent EVs has been just like other types of vehicles in their respective classes. Granted, these are relatively new cars - there isn't much longitudinal data on EV maintenance, but every indication is that it should be less than ICE vehicles. And can you put a price on the great driving experience of an EV (flat power curve, low center of gravity, silent, no combustion smell)? Probably, but I haven't tried.
    - stonogo 5y ago
      My results are similar to yours. I don't know if you can put a price on silent, non-oil-based, clean-running driving experiences, but it does come with the charge-time pain point. I look forward to the five-minute refuel I left behind to get the other benefits of an EV...
      - danans 5y ago
        > but it does come with the charge-time pain point. I look forward to the five-minute refuel I left behind to get the other benefits of an EV... Since I charge at home, this is only a pain point on road trips (though diminishing with the growing number of high power chargers along highways). However, I understand how it's a pain for apartment dwellers who don't have their own charging stations. So we need better street-side public charging infrastructure for them - but also for single-family-home dwellers with a second car that doesn't fit in the driveway. Living in a single-family-home shouldn't be a precondition for driving an EV.
bsder 5y ago
Except that a school bus tends to operate a diesel in its worst conditions. Lots of idling. Lots of low RPM operation. Lots of stop and start wasting a lot of energy into the brakes. A school bus is practically engineered to be an EV propaganda piece.
- Animats 5y ago
  Right. Plus it travels a known number of miles per day, and recharges at the same place each day. (Although, field trips?)
- jtlienwis 5y ago
  How much will they weigh compared to a Diesel bus? Road damage is to the fourth power of axle weight. Any cost savings may be just shifted to the road department for fixing pot holes. I think the VW EV is almost twice the weight of a same size ICE car. 16x the road damage. Plus, how much damage when this EV bus slides on the ice and hits something? Twice the damage if twice the weight.
  - kube-system 5y ago
    School bus weight is generally seen as a good thing, because we care more about keeping kids safe than road damage or damage to other vehicles.
  - gbear605 5y ago
    The battery doesn’t necessarily need to be that large, since the range can be small (<25 miles for most school districts assuming that they can charge during the day). Probably a school bus could get away with an battery the same size as one in a Tesla, so the weight of the rest of the bus probably dominates. Probably the weight of the students alone is a lot more when fully loaded.
  - bsder 5y ago
    It seems that these are the same weight. That's probably not a coincidence. This lists the GVWR for the diesels at up to 36,200 lbs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Bird_All_American https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Bird_All_American This lists the GVWR for electrics at the same: https://assets.ctfassets.net/ucu418cgcnau/362sQcGinJzFxVqFh0DBCr/cb2ee507e5c8f646ee133bfdabbccbfb/02_Blue_Bird_Electric_Bus_Presentation_Truck_and_Bus_NOTES_V2.pdf https://assets.ctfassets.net/ucu418cgcnau/362sQcGinJzFxVqFh0... Electrics also tend to benefit from better traction in crummy conditions because the batteries create a fixed, lower center of gravity. Do note that the drive system for these EV buses is apparently built by Cummins. For Cummins to put the effort in, they see a reason.
Gracana 5y ago
What is your truck? RAM 3500s with Cummins diesels come in 7000lb configurations, but we're talking ~15mpg, nowhere close to a countryman.
- fasteddie31003 5y ago
  My 03 Ram 2500 gets 24 MPG
  - Gracana 5y ago
    That's incredible. https://www.fuelly.com/car/dodge/ram_2500/2003 https://www.fuelly.com/car/dodge/ram_2500/2003
    - mywittyname 5y ago
      Maybe they call him fasteddie because he drives so slow.
      - selimthegrim 5y ago
        If he buys an electric truck he can change his name to Crazy Eddie when he sells it

danans 5y ago

> Most people have never operated a diesel engine. Their efficiency is very impressive. All else equal (vehicle class, size, performance, driving style), the operating cost per mile of an EV is 1/4 to 1/2 the operating cost per mile of a diesel or gasoline vehicle, even in states with very expensive electricity like California or Hawaii.

ilikeatari 5y ago
Is there a specific data set you are referencing? How about other components like Ownership and Support?
- danans 5y ago
  I've just done the math on my car operating costs. At today's gas prices (admittedly high due to the Ukraine war), the price of electricity in CA would have to more than triple for me to pay the same as I would for gas. Before the recent gas price spike it was like 2.25X to use gas. > How about other components like Ownership and Support? Do you mean depreciation and maintenance? Depreciation on recent EVs has been just like other types of vehicles in their respective classes. Granted, these are relatively new cars - there isn't much longitudinal data on EV maintenance, but every indication is that it should be less than ICE vehicles. And can you put a price on the great driving experience of an EV (flat power curve, low center of gravity, silent, no combustion smell)? Probably, but I haven't tried.
  - stonogo 5y ago
    My results are similar to yours. I don't know if you can put a price on silent, non-oil-based, clean-running driving experiences, but it does come with the charge-time pain point. I look forward to the five-minute refuel I left behind to get the other benefits of an EV...
    - danans 5y ago
      > but it does come with the charge-time pain point. I look forward to the five-minute refuel I left behind to get the other benefits of an EV... Since I charge at home, this is only a pain point on road trips (though diminishing with the growing number of high power chargers along highways). However, I understand how it's a pain for apartment dwellers who don't have their own charging stations. So we need better street-side public charging infrastructure for them - but also for single-family-home dwellers with a second car that doesn't fit in the driveway. Living in a single-family-home shouldn't be a precondition for driving an EV.

bsder 5y ago

Except that a school bus tends to operate a diesel in its worst conditions. Lots of idling. Lots of low RPM operation. Lots of stop and start wasting a lot of energy into the brakes. A school bus is practically engineered to be an EV propaganda piece.

Animats 5y ago
Right. Plus it travels a known number of miles per day, and recharges at the same place each day. (Although, field trips?)
jtlienwis 5y ago
How much will they weigh compared to a Diesel bus? Road damage is to the fourth power of axle weight. Any cost savings may be just shifted to the road department for fixing pot holes. I think the VW EV is almost twice the weight of a same size ICE car. 16x the road damage. Plus, how much damage when this EV bus slides on the ice and hits something? Twice the damage if twice the weight.
- kube-system 5y ago
  School bus weight is generally seen as a good thing, because we care more about keeping kids safe than road damage or damage to other vehicles.
- gbear605 5y ago
  The battery doesn’t necessarily need to be that large, since the range can be small (<25 miles for most school districts assuming that they can charge during the day). Probably a school bus could get away with an battery the same size as one in a Tesla, so the weight of the rest of the bus probably dominates. Probably the weight of the students alone is a lot more when fully loaded.
- bsder 5y ago
  It seems that these are the same weight. That's probably not a coincidence. This lists the GVWR for the diesels at up to 36,200 lbs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Bird_All_American https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Bird_All_American This lists the GVWR for electrics at the same: https://assets.ctfassets.net/ucu418cgcnau/362sQcGinJzFxVqFh0DBCr/cb2ee507e5c8f646ee133bfdabbccbfb/02_Blue_Bird_Electric_Bus_Presentation_Truck_and_Bus_NOTES_V2.pdf https://assets.ctfassets.net/ucu418cgcnau/362sQcGinJzFxVqFh0... Electrics also tend to benefit from better traction in crummy conditions because the batteries create a fixed, lower center of gravity. Do note that the drive system for these EV buses is apparently built by Cummins. For Cummins to put the effort in, they see a reason.

Gracana 5y ago

What is your truck? RAM 3500s with Cummins diesels come in 7000lb configurations, but we're talking ~15mpg, nowhere close to a countryman.

fasteddie31003 5y ago
My 03 Ram 2500 gets 24 MPG
- Gracana 5y ago
  That's incredible. https://www.fuelly.com/car/dodge/ram_2500/2003 https://www.fuelly.com/car/dodge/ram_2500/2003
  - mywittyname 5y ago
    Maybe they call him fasteddie because he drives so slow.
    - selimthegrim 5y ago
      If he buys an electric truck he can change his name to Crazy Eddie when he sells it