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It is a linguistic maze. The readership here is literate and even we endure mental strain navigating this viper's nest. I've went to buy a paperback and found m

It is a linguistic maze. The readership here is literate and even we endure mental strain navigating this viper's nest. I've went to buy a paperback and found myself signed up with Prime with just one wayward click, and I was being very cautious. Now imagine how it is for those less familiar with letters. How many folks only notice they've a Prime subscription when the montly bank statement arrives? It's a shame. I used to think so highly of Amazon.

maicro 5y ago
Yeah, my Grandma (chemo-brain-fog-addled at the time, now just terminal-cancer-brain-fog-addled...) accidentally signed up for Prime while buying a Secret Santa gift, had to help fix that (she didn't even know that she had an Amazon account, much less that she had a monthly Prime subscription).
- Nexxxeh 5y ago
  Slightly off-topic, but I'm sorry for your situation. I'm glad your grandma has you to help.
jjoonathan 5y ago
We need to fix this. We should take this completely out of companies' hands. The incentives are too perverse and too prevalent for anything good to come out of playing dark pattern whack-a-mole through legislation or, worse, "promoting dark pattern awareness" or some other brand of blame-dodging hogwash. Companies are stealing money and getting away with it. We have the technology to stop them. We should stop them. I suspect the easiest way to do it would be to give credit card company cancellation buttons legal bite: unless someone signs physical papers and does credit checks (e.g. for housing and utilities), nonpayment must be respected as a request to cancel and not creatively misinterpreted as an invitation to extend credit, charge fees, and accumulate interest.
- quinnjh 5y ago
  What is the technology to stop them?
  - vbezhenar 5y ago
    I can cancel any subscription on paypal web site. Banking system should adopt that: list every subscription on bank website and allow one-click cancel.
    - jjoonathan 5y ago
      It's not the Banking system's choice. It's a matter of contract law between the customer and the service. Once the contract law is changed, the Banking system can implement the feature.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Non-payment by credit card networks But they'll never take that leap of faith absent a law mandating it. There's not enough competition between the major issuing networks.
    - jjoonathan 5y ago
      Nah, CC providers would love to provide subscription management and cancellation services. They implement dumber and more expensive gimmick services all the time. They'd implement this one in a heartbeat if they could. Right now, they can't, because they have no privileged way to cancel a service on the user's behalf. They can withhold payment, yes, but under current consumer contract law withholding payment doesn't imply cancellation. We should change the law so that it does. Once the law changes, they would implement "cancel buttons" and "subscription management" so fast your head would spin -- and then they would flood TV and youtube with ads about it, and they would bug you every time you logged into your CC statement for the next year.
      - ethbr0 5y ago
        The self-interest on the credit card company's part requires they have a financial incentive. I don't think they care about customer satisfaction enough. ... the way to do it would be to disincentivize subscription companies from having credit card companies involved in cancellations. (1) Pass laws to empower credit card companies to cancel services on a user's behalf, if the user so requests + (2) Allow CC companies to collect a fee from the subscription service when they do so. CC companies will implement the feature as a profit source, but subscription services will also be incentivized to flow cancellations through themselves (because it's cheaper) thus leading to more streamlined cancellation.
- ThunderSizzle 5y ago
  I've never had issues requesting a chargeback if a service auto-charged me that I didn't desire to use or be charged for. I've done this to the NHL, Comcast, Sirius, Uber, etc. Considering some places don't even offer a way to contact support (Uber), chargebacks are the only way to handle this sometimes.
  - dijonman2 5y ago
    I have lost every single chargeback against Sirius - calls are recorded and even amex sides against the consumer. I’d love to hear your strategy.
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    I want the world to allow this! > "But I already do it" (paraphrasing) Not legally. If you hit "Agree" on a contract that says you will pay until cancel and then you stop paying without canceling, you're still legally on the hook for the payment. Technically. Most companies won't actually send you to collections. But they can, and sometimes they do, which is why credit card companies can't make GUIs to bring your subscriptions front and center with nice user friendly "cancel" buttons. Sometimes they still try to do this, but behind the scenes someone has to cancel on your behalf so it isn't reliable. Upgrading your strategy from "technically illegal" to "legal and normal" is how we bring it to the masses :)
- huijzer 5y ago
  > Companies are stealing money and getting away with it. Are they? I think that those companies misunderstand how easy it is to lose trust and how difficult it is to gain it. Humans are extremely good at remembering who can be trusted.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - canadianfella 5y ago
- candiodari 5y ago
  I think the easiest way would be to make it legal for consumers to block subscription payments, nothing - and demand companies just deal with it. That it means nothing more than that the subscription ends. Nothing more, nothing less.
lancesells 5y ago
I've started the process of closing my account last week. I need to download my order history for tax reasons but then I'm clicking on that confirmation email. I'm not a Prime member and it feels like I'm being tricked into becoming one whenever I've placed an order. I'll probably suffer with higher prices or slower delivery for some things but I can only tolerate these sorts of things for so long.
zulfazli 5y ago
On the other hand, cancelling once you are billed makes the entire charge reversed. So there is that...The even worse outcome I've experienced (from other businesses) is cancellation would only take effect on your next billing cycle. That does not seem to be the case. Source: personal experience
lupire 5y ago
> I used to think so highly of Amazon. Amazon never changed. You did.

maicro 5y ago

Yeah, my Grandma (chemo-brain-fog-addled at the time, now just terminal-cancer-brain-fog-addled...) accidentally signed up for Prime while buying a Secret Santa gift, had to help fix that (she didn't even know that she had an Amazon account, much less that she had a monthly Prime subscription).

Nexxxeh 5y ago
Slightly off-topic, but I'm sorry for your situation. I'm glad your grandma has you to help.

jjoonathan 5y ago

We need to fix this. We should take this completely out of companies' hands. The incentives are too perverse and too prevalent for anything good to come out of playing dark pattern whack-a-mole through legislation or, worse, "promoting dark pattern awareness" or some other brand of blame-dodging hogwash. Companies are stealing money and getting away with it. We have the technology to stop them. We should stop them. I suspect the easiest way to do it would be to give credit card company cancellation buttons legal bite: unless someone signs physical papers and does credit checks (e.g. for housing and utilities), nonpayment must be respected as a request to cancel and not creatively misinterpreted as an invitation to extend credit, charge fees, and accumulate interest.

quinnjh 5y ago
What is the technology to stop them?
- vbezhenar 5y ago
  I can cancel any subscription on paypal web site. Banking system should adopt that: list every subscription on bank website and allow one-click cancel.
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    It's not the Banking system's choice. It's a matter of contract law between the customer and the service. Once the contract law is changed, the Banking system can implement the feature.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Non-payment by credit card networks But they'll never take that leap of faith absent a law mandating it. There's not enough competition between the major issuing networks.
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    Nah, CC providers would love to provide subscription management and cancellation services. They implement dumber and more expensive gimmick services all the time. They'd implement this one in a heartbeat if they could. Right now, they can't, because they have no privileged way to cancel a service on the user's behalf. They can withhold payment, yes, but under current consumer contract law withholding payment doesn't imply cancellation. We should change the law so that it does. Once the law changes, they would implement "cancel buttons" and "subscription management" so fast your head would spin -- and then they would flood TV and youtube with ads about it, and they would bug you every time you logged into your CC statement for the next year.
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      The self-interest on the credit card company's part requires they have a financial incentive. I don't think they care about customer satisfaction enough. ... the way to do it would be to disincentivize subscription companies from having credit card companies involved in cancellations. (1) Pass laws to empower credit card companies to cancel services on a user's behalf, if the user so requests + (2) Allow CC companies to collect a fee from the subscription service when they do so. CC companies will implement the feature as a profit source, but subscription services will also be incentivized to flow cancellations through themselves (because it's cheaper) thus leading to more streamlined cancellation.
ThunderSizzle 5y ago
I've never had issues requesting a chargeback if a service auto-charged me that I didn't desire to use or be charged for. I've done this to the NHL, Comcast, Sirius, Uber, etc. Considering some places don't even offer a way to contact support (Uber), chargebacks are the only way to handle this sometimes.
- dijonman2 5y ago
  I have lost every single chargeback against Sirius - calls are recorded and even amex sides against the consumer. I’d love to hear your strategy.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  I want the world to allow this! > "But I already do it" (paraphrasing) Not legally. If you hit "Agree" on a contract that says you will pay until cancel and then you stop paying without canceling, you're still legally on the hook for the payment. Technically. Most companies won't actually send you to collections. But they can, and sometimes they do, which is why credit card companies can't make GUIs to bring your subscriptions front and center with nice user friendly "cancel" buttons. Sometimes they still try to do this, but behind the scenes someone has to cancel on your behalf so it isn't reliable. Upgrading your strategy from "technically illegal" to "legal and normal" is how we bring it to the masses :)
huijzer 5y ago
> Companies are stealing money and getting away with it. Are they? I think that those companies misunderstand how easy it is to lose trust and how difficult it is to gain it. Humans are extremely good at remembering who can be trusted.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- canadianfella 5y ago
candiodari 5y ago
I think the easiest way would be to make it legal for consumers to block subscription payments, nothing - and demand companies just deal with it. That it means nothing more than that the subscription ends. Nothing more, nothing less.

lancesells 5y ago

I've started the process of closing my account last week. I need to download my order history for tax reasons but then I'm clicking on that confirmation email. I'm not a Prime member and it feels like I'm being tricked into becoming one whenever I've placed an order. I'll probably suffer with higher prices or slower delivery for some things but I can only tolerate these sorts of things for so long.

zulfazli 5y ago

On the other hand, cancelling once you are billed makes the entire charge reversed. So there is that...The even worse outcome I've experienced (from other businesses) is cancellation would only take effect on your next billing cycle. That does not seem to be the case. Source: personal experience

lupire 5y ago

> I used to think so highly of Amazon. Amazon never changed. You did.