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The problem with any non-QWERTY keyboard layout is that all app and web shortcuts go out the window. You want to save an image for the web? Good luck growing a

The problem with any non-QWERTY keyboard layout is that all app and web shortcuts go out the window. You want to save an image for the web? Good luck growing a third hand. Want to open the quick menu on a site using ⌘+/, but your / key is only accessible using the shift key? Tough luck. Need to change the font size in your editor? Just navigate down these 3 easy sub-menus, because the keyboard shortcut for that is already reassigned to alleviate one of the other 300 broken shortcuts.

gillesjacobs 5y ago
There really should be a keyboard-shortcut standard. Some sort of configurable mapping of common actions/intents to key combinations that is set by the OS and shared between all apps.
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
There's definitely some issues, but since lots of normal people already use different keyboards for language reasons, this isn't as bad as you make out. The built in Dvorak on the Mac has an option to let the keys go back to normal for CMD usage, though I prefer learning them as typable letters than physically located chords.
V1ndaar 5y ago
This is an almost complete non-issue in practice. It sounds like an expectation someone has that hasn't actually switched to a different keyboard layout. I'm typing on neo [0] and it's no problem at all. [0]: https://neo-layout.org https://neo-layout.org
- cyounkins 5y ago
  Wikipedia says this project targets English, but I don't see any way to switch the website language to English so I can't read it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_(keyboard_layout) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_(keyboard_layout)
f1refly 5y ago
> Want to open the quick menu on a site using ⌘+/, but your / key is only accessible using the shift key? Welcome to the wonderful world of everyone whose countries native layout doesn't have a dedicated key for /, like most of europe.
- ihateolives 5y ago
  Issue is amplified by every additional key needed for the shortcut. Some shortcuts that require 3 keys on US keyboard, may require 4 on non-US and some are downright impossible, because keys cancel each other. For example I can't do Ctrl + ] because I need AltGr to produce ] and that won't work with Ctrl. Also I cant do Ctrl + ` because ` is dead key for me (it appears only after I type space or any other character).
avindroth 5y ago
This is something people have thought about because it's an obvious inconvenience to anyone trying out, say, Dvorak. On a Mac, you can use ⌘ keys as QWERTY, but have Dvorak for everything else. Like the other comment, this sounds like someone who hasn't given an alternative keyboard layout a serious try.
gumby 5y ago
I’ve been an emacs user for more than 40 years and have used almost every combination of bucky keys with glyph keys. This just isn’t a big deal in practice. In addition: I see you’re a Mac user. The kind of person willing to try this layout is probably willing to reassign all those keystrokes, which is easy (but tedious) on the Mac.
rak 5y ago
Yeah out of the box they are poof but I wonder if people would be comfortable with just accessing some of these useful shortcuts in the same positions in another layer? I experiment around with my layouts and keyboards a little bit so I am probably out of touch.
kortex 5y ago
I ran into this and I run some flavor of Dvorak on everything. Once I got my Zsa keyboards (first an Ergodox then a Moonlander, I love both but slightly prefer the moonlander) I added a level shift which makes it issue Command+<qwerty letter>. You can do the same with a regular keyboard in linux (haven't tried but I know it's possible with xkb) or mac (karabiner I think?). I have 16 layers of possible keys activated by thumb chords (though in practice my brain runs out of awareness of different combos far before my ~1000 unique keys). So I just dedicate a layer to this pseudo-qwerty. Need to get around to writing that emoji layer...
blacklion 5y ago
Problem with shortcuts is much deeper if you have more than one layout (say, English and Russian). It is problem both for MacOS and Windows, my examples will be for Windows, but MacOS has exactly the same problem. Imagine, you have two keyboard layouts installed: English (standard one, QWERTY) and Russian (standard one, ЙЦУКЕН, but it doesn't matter). Typical shortcut for "Open File" is Ctrl+O (O is English O). This key in QWERTY is on top row, on the right part of keyboard. Russian layout has letter Щ on same key. You can press Ctrl+O when English layout is active or you can press Ctrl+Щ when Russian layout is active, it will work the same: activate Ctrl+O shortcut, and shows you "Open File" dialog. Now Imagine you have combination of English Dvorak layout and same Russian ЙЦУКЕН layout. Open File shortcut now uses DIFFERENT KEYS in DIFFERENT LAYOUTS. When Dvorak is active you need to press Ctrl+O, where "O" is in the middle row, on the left. This key is Russian "Ы" in ЙЦУКЕН layout. Sounds good so far. But when Russian layout is active you need to press... Can you guess? No, not Ctrl+Ы (where Russian "Ы" in ЙЦУКЕН is same key as English "O" in Dvorak), but Ctrl+Щ, as if your English layout is still QWERTY. It is sick. It makes using shortcuts almost impossible - shortcuts become dependent on current active language! And what is worse, some programs (Google Docs is one example) refuse to use Ctrl+Ins/Shift+Ins and requires Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V for clipboard operations.
cyounkins 5y ago
Many sibling comments dismiss this as a non-issue if you've ever actually tried an alternative layout. As a Dvorak user on macOS for ~12 years, I do believe it's an issue. I use "Dvorak - QWERTY ⌘" as my daily driver and while it works for most applications, it's infuriating for those it doesn't. Sometimes keyboard shortcuts are control/option based without using command, so it's still in Dvorak mode. In Gimp, the New Image shortcut is ⌘-N, which doesn't work. I have to press physical L, which is the key for N in Dvorak. This is common. The apps seem to do some lower-level key detection. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues/3352 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues/3352 I think Fusion 360 does similar, though I don't have it installed at the moment. I have also had trouble with remove desktop applications, which is kind of to be expected but another downside.
- ajford 5y ago
  This is where programable keyboards win out when using alternative layouts. When the layout is at the hardware level, the OS only ever sees the actual keycode for the N key, instead of an "L" which is later transcribed into "N" by the OS's layout map.

gillesjacobs 5y ago

There really should be a keyboard-shortcut standard. Some sort of configurable mapping of common actions/intents to key combinations that is set by the OS and shared between all apps.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

There's definitely some issues, but since lots of normal people already use different keyboards for language reasons, this isn't as bad as you make out. The built in Dvorak on the Mac has an option to let the keys go back to normal for CMD usage, though I prefer learning them as typable letters than physically located chords.

V1ndaar 5y ago

This is an almost complete non-issue in practice. It sounds like an expectation someone has that hasn't actually switched to a different keyboard layout. I'm typing on neo [0] and it's no problem at all. [0]: https://neo-layout.org https://neo-layout.org

cyounkins 5y ago
Wikipedia says this project targets English, but I don't see any way to switch the website language to English so I can't read it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_(keyboard_layout) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_(keyboard_layout)

f1refly 5y ago

> Want to open the quick menu on a site using ⌘+/, but your / key is only accessible using the shift key? Welcome to the wonderful world of everyone whose countries native layout doesn't have a dedicated key for /, like most of europe.

ihateolives 5y ago
Issue is amplified by every additional key needed for the shortcut. Some shortcuts that require 3 keys on US keyboard, may require 4 on non-US and some are downright impossible, because keys cancel each other. For example I can't do Ctrl + ] because I need AltGr to produce ] and that won't work with Ctrl. Also I cant do Ctrl + ` because ` is dead key for me (it appears only after I type space or any other character).

avindroth 5y ago

This is something people have thought about because it's an obvious inconvenience to anyone trying out, say, Dvorak. On a Mac, you can use ⌘ keys as QWERTY, but have Dvorak for everything else. Like the other comment, this sounds like someone who hasn't given an alternative keyboard layout a serious try.

gumby 5y ago

I’ve been an emacs user for more than 40 years and have used almost every combination of bucky keys with glyph keys. This just isn’t a big deal in practice. In addition: I see you’re a Mac user. The kind of person willing to try this layout is probably willing to reassign all those keystrokes, which is easy (but tedious) on the Mac.

rak 5y ago

Yeah out of the box they are poof but I wonder if people would be comfortable with just accessing some of these useful shortcuts in the same positions in another layer? I experiment around with my layouts and keyboards a little bit so I am probably out of touch.

kortex 5y ago

I ran into this and I run some flavor of Dvorak on everything. Once I got my Zsa keyboards (first an Ergodox then a Moonlander, I love both but slightly prefer the moonlander) I added a level shift which makes it issue Command+<qwerty letter>. You can do the same with a regular keyboard in linux (haven't tried but I know it's possible with xkb) or mac (karabiner I think?). I have 16 layers of possible keys activated by thumb chords (though in practice my brain runs out of awareness of different combos far before my ~1000 unique keys). So I just dedicate a layer to this pseudo-qwerty. Need to get around to writing that emoji layer...

blacklion 5y ago

Problem with shortcuts is much deeper if you have more than one layout (say, English and Russian). It is problem both for MacOS and Windows, my examples will be for Windows, but MacOS has exactly the same problem. Imagine, you have two keyboard layouts installed: English (standard one, QWERTY) and Russian (standard one, ЙЦУКЕН, but it doesn't matter). Typical shortcut for "Open File" is Ctrl+O (O is English O). This key in QWERTY is on top row, on the right part of keyboard. Russian layout has letter Щ on same key. You can press Ctrl+O when English layout is active or you can press Ctrl+Щ when Russian layout is active, it will work the same: activate Ctrl+O shortcut, and shows you "Open File" dialog. Now Imagine you have combination of English Dvorak layout and same Russian ЙЦУКЕН layout. Open File shortcut now uses DIFFERENT KEYS in DIFFERENT LAYOUTS. When Dvorak is active you need to press Ctrl+O, where "O" is in the middle row, on the left. This key is Russian "Ы" in ЙЦУКЕН layout. Sounds good so far. But when Russian layout is active you need to press... Can you guess? No, not Ctrl+Ы (where Russian "Ы" in ЙЦУКЕН is same key as English "O" in Dvorak), but Ctrl+Щ, as if your English layout is still QWERTY. It is sick. It makes using shortcuts almost impossible - shortcuts become dependent on current active language! And what is worse, some programs (Google Docs is one example) refuse to use Ctrl+Ins/Shift+Ins and requires Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V for clipboard operations.

cyounkins 5y ago

Many sibling comments dismiss this as a non-issue if you've ever actually tried an alternative layout. As a Dvorak user on macOS for ~12 years, I do believe it's an issue. I use "Dvorak - QWERTY ⌘" as my daily driver and while it works for most applications, it's infuriating for those it doesn't. Sometimes keyboard shortcuts are control/option based without using command, so it's still in Dvorak mode. In Gimp, the New Image shortcut is ⌘-N, which doesn't work. I have to press physical L, which is the key for N in Dvorak. This is common. The apps seem to do some lower-level key detection. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues/3352 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gimp/-/issues/3352 I think Fusion 360 does similar, though I don't have it installed at the moment. I have also had trouble with remove desktop applications, which is kind of to be expected but another downside.

ajford 5y ago
This is where programable keyboards win out when using alternative layouts. When the layout is at the hardware level, the OS only ever sees the actual keycode for the N key, instead of an "L" which is later transcribed into "N" by the OS's layout map.