4 ms·

The problem I see with "improved layout"/"ergonomic"/"split" keyboards is that not only do you have to retrain your muscle memory to use one, but once you do th

by rob74 5y ago

The problem I see with "improved layout"/"ergonomic"/"split" keyboards is that not only do you have to retrain your muscle memory to use one, but once you do that, it will be harder for you to use a "regular" keyboard. I have a boring old Dell keyboard at home, so at work (where we have a hot desk policy since Covid -> home office -> office space reduction), I can use any keyboard except for one specific desk where for some reason they have a keyboard with a modified layout where the arrow keys are offset and the block above the arrow keys is rotated 90°

lm28469 5y ago
> but once you do that, it will be harder for you to use a "regular" keyboard Regular keyboards are different enough that switching between them already negates muscle memory for me
creakingstairs 5y ago
I have a Moonlander and I have put off buying it for at least a year due to a same concern. It turned out to be not a concern. My hands seem to adapt to a normal keyboard whenever I use it so I can switch between the two freely without much trouble.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- toxik 5y ago
  This applies to typing Dvorak and Qwerty as well, you don’t really forget. It’s like dancing, you can learn salsa and foxtrot without losing the other. Addendum, for split keyboards there was no learning curve at all. Really you just put a hand on each split and that’s all there is to it.
  - RamRodification 5y ago
    > for split keyboards there was no learning curve at all I'm guessing this is only true if your finger alignment matches with what you need for the split keyboard? I think a lot of people are used to using their right hand for some of the keys on the left side of the split and/or vice versa.
    - toxik 5y ago
      That’s a fair point, I was already a Dvorak typer when I got a split kbd which I think improved my typing technique. I’ve heard before that Qwerty encourages bad techniques.
- sondr3 5y ago
  Agreed, I spend about 70/15/15 of my time on my Moonlander, my laptop and a regular tenkeyless mechanical keyboard where my Moonlander is on Colemak mod-DH and the rest are QWERTY. I have no issues switching between them, which surprised me personally, I'm faster and a lot more accurate now with my Moonlander and find Colemak lots better than QWERTY, but given that I can't be bothered to fix the layout on my laptop I'll probably be decent at it as well for a long while.
esyir 5y ago
This is why I went with building my own sinc. Its a bog standard keyboard, but chopped in two.
jamil7 5y ago
Hmm I think that issue is overstated, I use a split keyboard in my coworking space, I go between it and my laptop keyboard at home regularly. Once I feel where I’m typing my brain seems to figure out pretty quickly and adjust.
vgel 5y ago
I just have Emacs-style capslock->ctrl and just with that I tYPE LIKE THIS on any computer that's not mine for the first 5 minutes. I almost regret it.
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  I have that issue. I use the caps key as my "wm key" on i3, and I press it all the time on other computers when I want to change apps, etc. But somehow, the different layout of an ergonomic keyboard doesn't bother me. I can go back and forth between my MS sculpt and a laptop with absolutely no issues aside from the position of home/end which aren't in the same order.
doix 5y ago
You'd think so, but somehow the brain adapts. I can type ~120 wpm on a moonlander/microsoft ergonomic 4000/my laptop keyboard on monkeytype (not that its a very useful test). Switching takes almost 0 effort. My problem is that my wrists and shoulders get sore really quickly when working on my laptop keyboard so I try to avoid doing that as much as possible.
mrtksn 5y ago
Exactly right. I'm have a Macbook Air M1 and an "Apple Wireless Keyboard" which is released in 2003, discontinued in 2015. Bought it 2nd hand, in great condition for quite cheap. The size and the layout are exactly the same apart for touch ID. It is great, zero adaptation between switching desktop configuration or mobile. Maybe its not the "elite" experience of the mechanical keyboards, it's still pretty good and it's definitely a privilege not having to adapt between keyboards. It's kind of surprising that people optimising for minute differences between clickiness of different key mechanisms wouldn't bother to optimize for this.
- ihateolives 5y ago
  I have three Apple wired keyboards (A1243, aluminum, from 2007 with 2011 upgrade) that are long discontinued now. Still use them daily, even with Windows, just have some keys remapped. These are really good keyboards. I regularily switch between these low profile ones and my mechanical Fnatic and have no problems typing on either ones.
  - mmphosis 5y ago
    How do you remap keys?
    - Sunspark 5y ago
      On Windows, you can use PowerToys (from Microsoft).
- microtonal 5y ago
  I love the newest wireless keyboard, it has Touch ID on the keyboard (only works on M1 Macs), which is awesome for e.g. SSH authentication [1]. Also, I like that you can just charge them with the lightning <-> USB-C cable (no more battery management) or use them as an USB keyboard.
orlp 5y ago
To go against the other comments here, I couldn't get used to it (building new muscle memory - let alone switching). Years ago I bought an ErgoDox. One of the main things I underestimated is that it has an ortholinear layout: the keys are straight above each other instead of being staggered like on a traditional keyboard. I went from typing 110WPM to 30WPM. After a week of practice I was at 50WPM. Two weeks in and I was at 60WPM. Most importantly, typing was now an activity that required thought, instead of simply flowing. At this point I was sufficiently frustrated and felt slowed down enough I stopped and went back to a traditional keyboard. I'm sure that with enough time I would reach my original speed and effort. But I have spent more than a decade building this muscle memory, and I didn't feel it was worth it to spend another decade building muscle memory on non-commodity hardware. Nowadays I'm on 130WPM, so any barrier to switch is even higher. I do understand that my experience is very atypical since I am (supposedly) in the top 0.1% percentile of typing speeds.
- hirako2000 5y ago
  It isn't just about speed. Ergonomic instruments increase comfort, which increases stamina and lower risks of injuries. Better ergonomy may increase per minute throughput, or decrease it. Rather measure throughput per day or even per week or longer; also factor in the potential consequence of injury leading to using the instrument at a fraction of the average user's speed for a good few months at least.
  - orlp 5y ago
    Most important for me wasn't speed, it was flow. But speed is easy to put a number on. I would be a lot more cautious about injury if I was doing a lot more sustained writing. But mostly I am doing technical writing and programming, which usually involves a lot of thinking followed by a small sprint of actually typing. If this small sprint doesn't break my flow or train of thought, it's perfect.
- michaelsalim 5y ago
  For me it's actually almost the reverse. I used to average 80WPM, not fast but pretty decent. Recently changed to use Moonlander[1], split keyboard + ortholinear. The first week was a chore. Even avoided the computer when I can. But during that time, I forced myself to finally learn how to touch type. Now I get 90+WPM consistently. More if I warm up and actually go for speed. Learning to type very differently than I used to probably helped to make the transition faster (no bad habits). So now I have the advantage of typing faster, without looking at the keyboard at all and better ergonomics (it helped with my shoulder pain). The biggest downside is now I can't type on a normal keyboard anymore. The problem is I never tried touch typing on staggered keyboard so it's like learning an entirely new keyboard layout. Not a big issue during the past year due to work from home though. [1] https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/
kache_ 5y ago
I use an ergodox most of the time. My WPM on ergodox is like 130, my wpm on regular is like 110 (not because its harder, but because I'm less used to it) If you keep switching as part of your protocol, it's fine
janlunge 5y ago
I can only say this is no issue for me. I'm currently using colemak dh on a dactyl manuform like keyboard and switch to using a macbook keyboard constantly because I use 2 devices. and even with the different layouts it doesn't make a difference for me. I think these bigger changes are easier to get used to than just smaller ones where for example the shift key is just a little longer that stuff always throws me off
l30n4da5 5y ago
I have a similar experience, but not with the split keyboards. been using a 60% mechanical here at home for work and play for a while now (about a year at this point). best keyboard I have ever used, bar-none. The only problem is that my muscle memory is so damn used to it now that I find it a little difficult to be productive on larger keyboards. Any time I want to move the cursor with the arrow keys, i find my right hand straying down to where the 'fn' key should be, etc. not really a huge problem -- I'm working on replacing existing keyboards that I use everywhere with the same 60% model because I love it so much, but just soemthing I've noticed.
BeFlatXIII 5y ago
I with ergonomic keyboards doubled the keys on the border between hands between both halves. I frequently reach for those keys with the “wrong” index finger and would get annoyed if the keyboard said no.

by rob74 5y ago

lm28469 5y ago

> but once you do that, it will be harder for you to use a "regular" keyboard Regular keyboards are different enough that switching between them already negates muscle memory for me

creakingstairs 5y ago

I have a Moonlander and I have put off buying it for at least a year due to a same concern. It turned out to be not a concern. My hands seem to adapt to a normal keyboard whenever I use it so I can switch between the two freely without much trouble.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
toxik 5y ago
This applies to typing Dvorak and Qwerty as well, you don’t really forget. It’s like dancing, you can learn salsa and foxtrot without losing the other. Addendum, for split keyboards there was no learning curve at all. Really you just put a hand on each split and that’s all there is to it.
- RamRodification 5y ago
  > for split keyboards there was no learning curve at all I'm guessing this is only true if your finger alignment matches with what you need for the split keyboard? I think a lot of people are used to using their right hand for some of the keys on the left side of the split and/or vice versa.
  - toxik 5y ago
    That’s a fair point, I was already a Dvorak typer when I got a split kbd which I think improved my typing technique. I’ve heard before that Qwerty encourages bad techniques.
sondr3 5y ago
Agreed, I spend about 70/15/15 of my time on my Moonlander, my laptop and a regular tenkeyless mechanical keyboard where my Moonlander is on Colemak mod-DH and the rest are QWERTY. I have no issues switching between them, which surprised me personally, I'm faster and a lot more accurate now with my Moonlander and find Colemak lots better than QWERTY, but given that I can't be bothered to fix the layout on my laptop I'll probably be decent at it as well for a long while.

esyir 5y ago

This is why I went with building my own sinc. Its a bog standard keyboard, but chopped in two.

jamil7 5y ago

Hmm I think that issue is overstated, I use a split keyboard in my coworking space, I go between it and my laptop keyboard at home regularly. Once I feel where I’m typing my brain seems to figure out pretty quickly and adjust.

vgel 5y ago

I just have Emacs-style capslock->ctrl and just with that I tYPE LIKE THIS on any computer that's not mine for the first 5 minutes. I almost regret it.

vladvasiliu 5y ago
I have that issue. I use the caps key as my "wm key" on i3, and I press it all the time on other computers when I want to change apps, etc. But somehow, the different layout of an ergonomic keyboard doesn't bother me. I can go back and forth between my MS sculpt and a laptop with absolutely no issues aside from the position of home/end which aren't in the same order.

doix 5y ago

You'd think so, but somehow the brain adapts. I can type ~120 wpm on a moonlander/microsoft ergonomic 4000/my laptop keyboard on monkeytype (not that its a very useful test). Switching takes almost 0 effort. My problem is that my wrists and shoulders get sore really quickly when working on my laptop keyboard so I try to avoid doing that as much as possible.

mrtksn 5y ago

Exactly right. I'm have a Macbook Air M1 and an "Apple Wireless Keyboard" which is released in 2003, discontinued in 2015. Bought it 2nd hand, in great condition for quite cheap. The size and the layout are exactly the same apart for touch ID. It is great, zero adaptation between switching desktop configuration or mobile. Maybe its not the "elite" experience of the mechanical keyboards, it's still pretty good and it's definitely a privilege not having to adapt between keyboards. It's kind of surprising that people optimising for minute differences between clickiness of different key mechanisms wouldn't bother to optimize for this.

ihateolives 5y ago
I have three Apple wired keyboards (A1243, aluminum, from 2007 with 2011 upgrade) that are long discontinued now. Still use them daily, even with Windows, just have some keys remapped. These are really good keyboards. I regularily switch between these low profile ones and my mechanical Fnatic and have no problems typing on either ones.
- mmphosis 5y ago
  How do you remap keys?
  - Sunspark 5y ago
    On Windows, you can use PowerToys (from Microsoft).
microtonal 5y ago
I love the newest wireless keyboard, it has Touch ID on the keyboard (only works on M1 Macs), which is awesome for e.g. SSH authentication [1]. Also, I like that you can just charge them with the lightning <-> USB-C cable (no more battery management) or use them as an USB keyboard.

orlp 5y ago

To go against the other comments here, I couldn't get used to it (building new muscle memory - let alone switching). Years ago I bought an ErgoDox. One of the main things I underestimated is that it has an ortholinear layout: the keys are straight above each other instead of being staggered like on a traditional keyboard. I went from typing 110WPM to 30WPM. After a week of practice I was at 50WPM. Two weeks in and I was at 60WPM. Most importantly, typing was now an activity that required thought, instead of simply flowing. At this point I was sufficiently frustrated and felt slowed down enough I stopped and went back to a traditional keyboard. I'm sure that with enough time I would reach my original speed and effort. But I have spent more than a decade building this muscle memory, and I didn't feel it was worth it to spend another decade building muscle memory on non-commodity hardware. Nowadays I'm on 130WPM, so any barrier to switch is even higher. I do understand that my experience is very atypical since I am (supposedly) in the top 0.1% percentile of typing speeds.

hirako2000 5y ago
It isn't just about speed. Ergonomic instruments increase comfort, which increases stamina and lower risks of injuries. Better ergonomy may increase per minute throughput, or decrease it. Rather measure throughput per day or even per week or longer; also factor in the potential consequence of injury leading to using the instrument at a fraction of the average user's speed for a good few months at least.
- orlp 5y ago
  Most important for me wasn't speed, it was flow. But speed is easy to put a number on. I would be a lot more cautious about injury if I was doing a lot more sustained writing. But mostly I am doing technical writing and programming, which usually involves a lot of thinking followed by a small sprint of actually typing. If this small sprint doesn't break my flow or train of thought, it's perfect.
michaelsalim 5y ago
For me it's actually almost the reverse. I used to average 80WPM, not fast but pretty decent. Recently changed to use Moonlander[1], split keyboard + ortholinear. The first week was a chore. Even avoided the computer when I can. But during that time, I forced myself to finally learn how to touch type. Now I get 90+WPM consistently. More if I warm up and actually go for speed. Learning to type very differently than I used to probably helped to make the transition faster (no bad habits). So now I have the advantage of typing faster, without looking at the keyboard at all and better ergonomics (it helped with my shoulder pain). The biggest downside is now I can't type on a normal keyboard anymore. The problem is I never tried touch typing on staggered keyboard so it's like learning an entirely new keyboard layout. Not a big issue during the past year due to work from home though. [1] https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/

kache_ 5y ago

I use an ergodox most of the time. My WPM on ergodox is like 130, my wpm on regular is like 110 (not because its harder, but because I'm less used to it) If you keep switching as part of your protocol, it's fine

janlunge 5y ago

I can only say this is no issue for me. I'm currently using colemak dh on a dactyl manuform like keyboard and switch to using a macbook keyboard constantly because I use 2 devices. and even with the different layouts it doesn't make a difference for me. I think these bigger changes are easier to get used to than just smaller ones where for example the shift key is just a little longer that stuff always throws me off

l30n4da5 5y ago

I have a similar experience, but not with the split keyboards. been using a 60% mechanical here at home for work and play for a while now (about a year at this point). best keyboard I have ever used, bar-none. The only problem is that my muscle memory is so damn used to it now that I find it a little difficult to be productive on larger keyboards. Any time I want to move the cursor with the arrow keys, i find my right hand straying down to where the 'fn' key should be, etc. not really a huge problem -- I'm working on replacing existing keyboards that I use everywhere with the same 60% model because I love it so much, but just soemthing I've noticed.

BeFlatXIII 5y ago

I with ergonomic keyboards doubled the keys on the border between hands between both halves. I frequently reach for those keys with the “wrong” index finger and would get annoyed if the keyboard said no.