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Everybody who points out for example @IanDrake, @aaron695 that this might have to do with drug addiction or even metal illness is immediately downvoted and shou

by fargle 5y ago

Everybody who points out for example @IanDrake, @aaron695 that this might have to do with drug addiction or even metal illness is immediately downvoted and shouted down into oblivion. I'm sorry, these are valid points of view - if you disagree, fine, but have a dialog or something. There's a lot more than just "zoning rules don't allow us to make enough new houses" and if you're going to say anything at all, you need to address that - not just strut around virtue signaling.

ncmncm 5y ago
Drug addiction and mental illness are endemic aspects of the problem, but not definitive. Often enough, the problem is just badly designed society. Drug addiction treatment, mental illness treatment, unemployment help, general medical help are all needed both to get people able to maintain, and to keep others from falling out of place. Mental illness and addiction are not moral failings. Treating them as such has been reliably demonstrated to make things worse. Treating them as illnesses has likewise been demonstrated to produce better results. But the US has long had a terrible problem with letting people have medical treatment they need.
- fargle 5y ago
  I concur with all of this. And well said. What I was reacting to was two other commenters saying something similar and getting silenced for it. Not disagreed with or challenged or anything, just squashed. > badly designed society This the only nit I'd have with what you said. I'd say that it's a flaw in society perhaps, but I don't thing our society is designed by anyone or thing, and I don't know how it could ever be, nor maybe should ever be. In a free society, it evolves. And while some forces are trying to re-design, re-engineer, and steer parts of it, there are millions of other forces semi-aligned or opposed and pushing in all sorts of different directions. That makes the outcomes develop in a chaotic and unpredictable ways. And certainly flawed, but also on the whole, not terrible. So overly simple pat "answers" like "fix the zoning => affordable houses => no more homeless" or "tiny homes" or "use a new term to destigmatize..." are of course going to get nowhere. We have to recognize all the flaws and problems and push just in the right way to nudge that society of millions in some direction that will hopefully just slightly improve things without backfiring. Wide eyed idealism is not going to help at all, and it's actively harmful when pursued with zealotry to shut down honest communication about those flaws. Like mental health and substance abuse.

by fargle 5y ago

ncmncm 5y ago

Drug addiction and mental illness are endemic aspects of the problem, but not definitive. Often enough, the problem is just badly designed society. Drug addiction treatment, mental illness treatment, unemployment help, general medical help are all needed both to get people able to maintain, and to keep others from falling out of place. Mental illness and addiction are not moral failings. Treating them as such has been reliably demonstrated to make things worse. Treating them as illnesses has likewise been demonstrated to produce better results. But the US has long had a terrible problem with letting people have medical treatment they need.

fargle 5y ago
I concur with all of this. And well said. What I was reacting to was two other commenters saying something similar and getting silenced for it. Not disagreed with or challenged or anything, just squashed. > badly designed society This the only nit I'd have with what you said. I'd say that it's a flaw in society perhaps, but I don't thing our society is designed by anyone or thing, and I don't know how it could ever be, nor maybe should ever be. In a free society, it evolves. And while some forces are trying to re-design, re-engineer, and steer parts of it, there are millions of other forces semi-aligned or opposed and pushing in all sorts of different directions. That makes the outcomes develop in a chaotic and unpredictable ways. And certainly flawed, but also on the whole, not terrible. So overly simple pat "answers" like "fix the zoning => affordable houses => no more homeless" or "tiny homes" or "use a new term to destigmatize..." are of course going to get nowhere. We have to recognize all the flaws and problems and push just in the right way to nudge that society of millions in some direction that will hopefully just slightly improve things without backfiring. Wide eyed idealism is not going to help at all, and it's actively harmful when pursued with zealotry to shut down honest communication about those flaws. Like mental health and substance abuse.