4 ms·

I can't see how that is possible without blocking countries from the advertising/participation pool. It's the Wild West otherwise. Pointless having a name if yo

by prawn 5y ago

I can't see how that is possible without blocking countries from the advertising/participation pool. It's the Wild West otherwise. Pointless having a name if your pursuit doesn't have legal teeth.

BLKNSLVR 5y ago
How does it work in pre-internet media advertising? > It's the Wild West otherwise. That's the "do nothing" case that we're in now though isn't it? > Pointless having a name if your pursuit doesn't have legal teeth. Can't advertise into country X if you don't have a legal presence in country X. (Simple? Pending the years of legislative navigation, by which time alternatives will have filtered into the ecosystem: decentralisation and non-censorability, etc.). Which is basically what you've said "blocking countries from the advertising/participation pool". So, yes, I think I agree :)
- prawn 5y ago
  Pre-internet, there weren't infinite scammers hammering magazines and newspapers from overseas with questionable ads. There was still some junk, but no where near as relentless. And most products were physical, so even if you were advertising miracle skin repair, you were manufacturing and shipping a physical product so it was harder to appear and disappear. Ease of money transfer hasn't helped prevent scams either. The issue with locking down by country is, say you have an upstanding SaaS startup and you want to advertise to the world. Can you realistically justify registering your business in 100+ countries? Even something like Stripe Atlas is arguably too heavy-handed for side-project stage. I could see there being a verification engine whereby an advertiser posted a bond before that verification service endorsed them to publishers. But this would require countries to require publishers to use something like this, because they won't do it off their own back.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    > The issue with locking down by country is, say you have an upstanding SaaS startup and you want to advertise to the world It depends on what the ad is about. The verification requirements should be much more stringent for a financial or medical service than some random SaaS (the latter's customers can already be made whole by just disputing the transaction with their card issuer). I don't believe it's that far-fetched to require financial services to have a business presence in the local country and abide by local laws before being able to advertise.
Nextgrid 5y ago
> I can't see how that is possible without blocking countries from the advertising/participation pool. "Nigerian price" scams were basically non-existent before Internet access became easy, cheap & widespread. It isn't that something fundamentally changed with people becoming more gullible or suddenly having more money to spend, it's just that Internet access allowed people in foreign countries with law/corrupt law enforcement to suddenly be able to make big bucks while being out of reach from the target country's law enforcement. Back in the day this would've been theoretically possible, but would've most likely required being on the ground (putting you in reach of LE) and having some initial credibility and funds to convince a media network to broadcast your scam. Maybe some barriers to entry are a necessary evil?
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > "Nigerian price" scams were basically non-existent before Internet access became easy, cheap & widespread. False; the model of scam (“advance-fee scam”) dates back to at least the 19th Century and became particularly popular in the 1980s, long before widespread internet access.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    I'm sure the model was there, but were they so widespread? I'd expect that without the internet and requiring a business presence in the country, it would raise the risk of law enforcement involvement considerably as opposed to just being able to spam email from a foreign country.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > I'm sure the model was there, but were they so widespread? I'd expect that without the internet and requiring a business presence in the country, it would raise the risk of law enforcement involvement considerably as opposed to just being able to spam email from a foreign country. They were less commonly addressed to the kind of people who would never even consider going along with them, because selectivity in presentation was a survival skill for scam artists, but, yes, advance-fee scams were rather notoriously common scams before the internet became popular.
toss1 5y ago
>>without blocking countries from the advertising/participation pool Fine. If your country doesn't have sufficient commercial and legal infrastructure to have solid basic KYC and legal responsibility, you don't get to participate. Perhaps might provide motivation for countries to step up to the requirements of a civilized world — or not, and they can enjoy the benefits of a 'wild west' world. Pick a lane, but you don't get both
- prawn 5y ago
  That's what I've been getting at, but it would require voluntary industry participation (hasn't and won't happen), or regulation from a set of countries able to drag everyone else along with them. EU might be a shot.

by prawn 5y ago

I can't see how that is possible without blocking countries from the advertising/participation pool. It's the Wild West otherwise. Pointless having a name if your pursuit doesn't have legal teeth.

BLKNSLVR 5y ago

How does it work in pre-internet media advertising? > It's the Wild West otherwise. That's the "do nothing" case that we're in now though isn't it? > Pointless having a name if your pursuit doesn't have legal teeth. Can't advertise into country X if you don't have a legal presence in country X. (Simple? Pending the years of legislative navigation, by which time alternatives will have filtered into the ecosystem: decentralisation and non-censorability, etc.). Which is basically what you've said "blocking countries from the advertising/participation pool". So, yes, I think I agree :)

prawn 5y ago
Pre-internet, there weren't infinite scammers hammering magazines and newspapers from overseas with questionable ads. There was still some junk, but no where near as relentless. And most products were physical, so even if you were advertising miracle skin repair, you were manufacturing and shipping a physical product so it was harder to appear and disappear. Ease of money transfer hasn't helped prevent scams either. The issue with locking down by country is, say you have an upstanding SaaS startup and you want to advertise to the world. Can you realistically justify registering your business in 100+ countries? Even something like Stripe Atlas is arguably too heavy-handed for side-project stage. I could see there being a verification engine whereby an advertiser posted a bond before that verification service endorsed them to publishers. But this would require countries to require publishers to use something like this, because they won't do it off their own back.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  > The issue with locking down by country is, say you have an upstanding SaaS startup and you want to advertise to the world It depends on what the ad is about. The verification requirements should be much more stringent for a financial or medical service than some random SaaS (the latter's customers can already be made whole by just disputing the transaction with their card issuer). I don't believe it's that far-fetched to require financial services to have a business presence in the local country and abide by local laws before being able to advertise.

Nextgrid 5y ago

> I can't see how that is possible without blocking countries from the advertising/participation pool. "Nigerian price" scams were basically non-existent before Internet access became easy, cheap & widespread. It isn't that something fundamentally changed with people becoming more gullible or suddenly having more money to spend, it's just that Internet access allowed people in foreign countries with law/corrupt law enforcement to suddenly be able to make big bucks while being out of reach from the target country's law enforcement. Back in the day this would've been theoretically possible, but would've most likely required being on the ground (putting you in reach of LE) and having some initial credibility and funds to convince a media network to broadcast your scam. Maybe some barriers to entry are a necessary evil?

dragonwriter 5y ago
> "Nigerian price" scams were basically non-existent before Internet access became easy, cheap & widespread. False; the model of scam (“advance-fee scam”) dates back to at least the 19th Century and became particularly popular in the 1980s, long before widespread internet access.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  I'm sure the model was there, but were they so widespread? I'd expect that without the internet and requiring a business presence in the country, it would raise the risk of law enforcement involvement considerably as opposed to just being able to spam email from a foreign country.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > I'm sure the model was there, but were they so widespread? I'd expect that without the internet and requiring a business presence in the country, it would raise the risk of law enforcement involvement considerably as opposed to just being able to spam email from a foreign country. They were less commonly addressed to the kind of people who would never even consider going along with them, because selectivity in presentation was a survival skill for scam artists, but, yes, advance-fee scams were rather notoriously common scams before the internet became popular.

toss1 5y ago

>>without blocking countries from the advertising/participation pool Fine. If your country doesn't have sufficient commercial and legal infrastructure to have solid basic KYC and legal responsibility, you don't get to participate. Perhaps might provide motivation for countries to step up to the requirements of a civilized world — or not, and they can enjoy the benefits of a 'wild west' world. Pick a lane, but you don't get both

prawn 5y ago
That's what I've been getting at, but it would require voluntary industry participation (hasn't and won't happen), or regulation from a set of countries able to drag everyone else along with them. EU might be a shot.