4 ms·

Ideally Russian software development is forced to be bogged down in vetting and forced away from using any open source libraries and tools.

coolspot 5y ago
But in reality it slows down the whole world, because now everyone needs to check their open source dependencies, not only Russians. What if Russians also will play this game with OpenCV, Redux, Kotlin, Nginx… https://github.com/igoradamenko/awesome-made-by-russians https://github.com/igoradamenko/awesome-made-by-russians
- rosndo 5y ago
  I think your examples are terrible. Everything you listed is controlled by western companies or individuals. >OpenCV Intel, a US company >Redux I don’t think this was developed in Russia at any point, current maintainers appear to be American. One of the original devs came from a Russian background but seems to live in the UK, and would be considered a traitor in Russia judging by his tweets. >Kotlin Jetbrains, a Czech company which suspended their presence in Russia because of the war. >Nginx F5, US company.
- xdennis 5y ago
  > What if Russians also will play this game with OpenCV, Redux, Kotlin, Nginx… The Russians are already attacking us. Just off the top of my head: NotPetya, Korea Olympics attack, US elections, US pipeline attack. You can't say we have to surrender in the open source front out of fear that they will respond back when they're the ones attacking the civilized world on all fronts.
randomhodler84 5y ago
It doesn’t work that way. Everyone is connected, same software, same ecosystem, same network. If you attack one person with malware you attack the world.
- rosndo 5y ago
  But that’s strictly not true, bordering on delusional. Geo-targeted malware that only runs on specific computers is not attacking the whole world.
  - randomhodler84 5y ago
    It is strictly true. Delusional is thinking that the internet is not shared medium for the world. No way. GeoIP is an opinion. Ask that couple in Kansas what they think of it. There was a report (could be fake?) that a U.S. NGO that had some Russian appearing hosts got hit in this malware attack. You cannot restrict malware to a region. Internets man. Internets. How soon we forget Stuxnet. EternalBlue/WannaCry. NotPetya. You write malicious software to harm systems, any systems, you are an enemy of the internet.
    - stuxneteer 5y ago
      You really have to be delusional to equate stuxnet with WannaCry and NotPetya. Stuxnet caused zero harm outside of the very specific systems it targetted, there was no collateral damage. In fact, it was designed in a way that rendered collateral damage almost impossible. WannaCry and NotPetya were indiscriminate attacks against the whole world (Well, NotPetya refused to execute if you only had en_US keyboard layout installed).
      - randomhodler84 5y ago
        Say what?? Sorry but it did. It leaked. Caused a lot of trouble. Still around today even. It’s a worm!!! Why would you make that up that it wasn’t a complete cock up of an op?? Did you have some hand in writing it?
        stuxneteer 5y ago
        Uh, a worm that only spreads and then does nothing isn’t causing any damage. > Why would you make that up that it wasn’t a complete cock up of an op?? Did you have some hand in writing it? It wasn’t a cock up, why would it have been?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
somenameforme 5y ago
Think logically about what you're proposing. Hurting people doesn't suddenly make them go "Darn, the rest of the world is hurting us because they don't like our government. I know, let's overthrow our government and become super friendly with the people trying to hurt us!" It leads to extreme antagonism that most frequently trends towards ultra-nationalism and even more extreme hardline stances. Iran in the 1950s took a relatively anti-western approach towards things and tried to nationalize their own oil. In 1953 we overthrew their democratic secular government and installed an authoritarian (and deeply unpopular) monarchy. In 1979 they then had a genuine revolution and overthrew the US puppet monarchy, and created the Islamic Republic that exists to this day. We'd do anything to go back to 1953 now, but that bridge has long since met the cruise missiles of freedom. And Iran, while perhaps the most colorful illustration because of how we radically transformed the country (against us) in such a short time, is closer to the rule than the exception. Iraq (the only other Shiite majority nation than Iran) is going down the exact same road today. Actions lead to equal but opposite reactions, not only in physics. This is the reason that in times past you'd have "blood feuds" lasting for centuries. People don't care about your reason for some hostile action, they only care about that action. Start intentionally breaking open source software to try to hurt some group and that group will start doing the exact same thing to you. Won't it be great for open source software when an increasing chunk of pull requests are from people trying their hardest to insert malicious code as subtly as possible, because politics?
- rosndo 5y ago
  Nobody seriously expects that any form of sanctions will result on a popular uprising in Russia. Sanctions, and presumably non-government actions like this are entirely fair moves in order to punish Russia for their war of aggression, in order to discourage Russia and others from starting wars in Europe ever again. It’s sort of like putting a murderer in prison, nobody expects that to directly fix anything. > Start intentionally breaking open source software to try to hurt some group and that group will start doing the exact same thing to you. This sounds a lot like a veiled argument against providing any support for Ukraine. Because open source software isn’t special, why wouldn’t the same logic apply to literally everything else?
sso7 5y ago
What a dumb idea… similar with other ongoing sanctions and group responsibility. It sounds like there are a lot activists who consider themselves as true right doers. You are oversimplifying the world by your naive and arrogant thinking. What do you know about “russians” you are going to affect? Just because they are living within the country does it mean they are supporting they government. But you want to make their life even harder? From their perspective the whole world is against them without any distinction only because of their nationality. And no they would not make rebellion, but rather switch to government propaganda that “west hates us and wants our collapse”. Right, your activism saved the situation and stopped war… or? Think about this before oversimplifying I am Ukrainian and my partner is Russian, both having families in these countries. We already see the impact of western sanctions, they are not affecting government the same way they are hurting people living there. And one more thing. While Ukrainian government calls to west to leave Russian market to reduce money flow to Russian, one of main income for Russian government - gas pipeline to EU goes through Ukraine and no one even tries to sabotage it to really affect finances of hostile gov. I am against the war, but it does not mean I will built my ego by making other people to suffer only because it is a trend nowadays unfortunately in western world too
- rosndo 5y ago
  Hmm, a throwaway account with a single comment constructing a straw man to argue against western sanctions for the war. It’s simply an unfortunate reality that the Russian state can’t be punished for their actions without collateral damage. The purpose of the sanctions is to economically punish Russia in order to ensure that Russia and others do not repeat the same actions in the future. Furthermore, the sanctions create a huge distraction for the Russian leadership that’s already very busy with their war effort. Within months, the sanctions will also severely disrupt Russian military supply chains as they rely heavily on imports. > And no they would not make rebellion, but rather switch to government propaganda that “west hates us and wants our collapse”. Yeah, nobody cares. This isn’t the purpose of the sanctions. > my partner is Russian, both having families in these countries Same. My in-laws control one of the biggest exporters in Russia, their business has been severely hurt by the sanctions. Despite this, you won’t find many arguing against the sanctions in our circles, it’s simply the appropriate response to Putin’s folly.

coolspot 5y ago

But in reality it slows down the whole world, because now everyone needs to check their open source dependencies, not only Russians. What if Russians also will play this game with OpenCV, Redux, Kotlin, Nginx… https://github.com/igoradamenko/awesome-made-by-russians https://github.com/igoradamenko/awesome-made-by-russians

rosndo 5y ago
I think your examples are terrible. Everything you listed is controlled by western companies or individuals. >OpenCV Intel, a US company >Redux I don’t think this was developed in Russia at any point, current maintainers appear to be American. One of the original devs came from a Russian background but seems to live in the UK, and would be considered a traitor in Russia judging by his tweets. >Kotlin Jetbrains, a Czech company which suspended their presence in Russia because of the war. >Nginx F5, US company.
xdennis 5y ago
> What if Russians also will play this game with OpenCV, Redux, Kotlin, Nginx… The Russians are already attacking us. Just off the top of my head: NotPetya, Korea Olympics attack, US elections, US pipeline attack. You can't say we have to surrender in the open source front out of fear that they will respond back when they're the ones attacking the civilized world on all fronts.

randomhodler84 5y ago

It doesn’t work that way. Everyone is connected, same software, same ecosystem, same network. If you attack one person with malware you attack the world.

rosndo 5y ago
But that’s strictly not true, bordering on delusional. Geo-targeted malware that only runs on specific computers is not attacking the whole world.
- randomhodler84 5y ago
  It is strictly true. Delusional is thinking that the internet is not shared medium for the world. No way. GeoIP is an opinion. Ask that couple in Kansas what they think of it. There was a report (could be fake?) that a U.S. NGO that had some Russian appearing hosts got hit in this malware attack. You cannot restrict malware to a region. Internets man. Internets. How soon we forget Stuxnet. EternalBlue/WannaCry. NotPetya. You write malicious software to harm systems, any systems, you are an enemy of the internet.
  - stuxneteer 5y ago
    You really have to be delusional to equate stuxnet with WannaCry and NotPetya. Stuxnet caused zero harm outside of the very specific systems it targetted, there was no collateral damage. In fact, it was designed in a way that rendered collateral damage almost impossible. WannaCry and NotPetya were indiscriminate attacks against the whole world (Well, NotPetya refused to execute if you only had en_US keyboard layout installed).
    - randomhodler84 5y ago
      Say what?? Sorry but it did. It leaked. Caused a lot of trouble. Still around today even. It’s a worm!!! Why would you make that up that it wasn’t a complete cock up of an op?? Did you have some hand in writing it?
      - stuxneteer 5y ago
        Uh, a worm that only spreads and then does nothing isn’t causing any damage. > Why would you make that up that it wasn’t a complete cock up of an op?? Did you have some hand in writing it? It wasn’t a cock up, why would it have been?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

somenameforme 5y ago

Think logically about what you're proposing. Hurting people doesn't suddenly make them go "Darn, the rest of the world is hurting us because they don't like our government. I know, let's overthrow our government and become super friendly with the people trying to hurt us!" It leads to extreme antagonism that most frequently trends towards ultra-nationalism and even more extreme hardline stances. Iran in the 1950s took a relatively anti-western approach towards things and tried to nationalize their own oil. In 1953 we overthrew their democratic secular government and installed an authoritarian (and deeply unpopular) monarchy. In 1979 they then had a genuine revolution and overthrew the US puppet monarchy, and created the Islamic Republic that exists to this day. We'd do anything to go back to 1953 now, but that bridge has long since met the cruise missiles of freedom. And Iran, while perhaps the most colorful illustration because of how we radically transformed the country (against us) in such a short time, is closer to the rule than the exception. Iraq (the only other Shiite majority nation than Iran) is going down the exact same road today. Actions lead to equal but opposite reactions, not only in physics. This is the reason that in times past you'd have "blood feuds" lasting for centuries. People don't care about your reason for some hostile action, they only care about that action. Start intentionally breaking open source software to try to hurt some group and that group will start doing the exact same thing to you. Won't it be great for open source software when an increasing chunk of pull requests are from people trying their hardest to insert malicious code as subtly as possible, because politics?

rosndo 5y ago
Nobody seriously expects that any form of sanctions will result on a popular uprising in Russia. Sanctions, and presumably non-government actions like this are entirely fair moves in order to punish Russia for their war of aggression, in order to discourage Russia and others from starting wars in Europe ever again. It’s sort of like putting a murderer in prison, nobody expects that to directly fix anything. > Start intentionally breaking open source software to try to hurt some group and that group will start doing the exact same thing to you. This sounds a lot like a veiled argument against providing any support for Ukraine. Because open source software isn’t special, why wouldn’t the same logic apply to literally everything else?

sso7 5y ago

What a dumb idea… similar with other ongoing sanctions and group responsibility. It sounds like there are a lot activists who consider themselves as true right doers. You are oversimplifying the world by your naive and arrogant thinking. What do you know about “russians” you are going to affect? Just because they are living within the country does it mean they are supporting they government. But you want to make their life even harder? From their perspective the whole world is against them without any distinction only because of their nationality. And no they would not make rebellion, but rather switch to government propaganda that “west hates us and wants our collapse”. Right, your activism saved the situation and stopped war… or? Think about this before oversimplifying I am Ukrainian and my partner is Russian, both having families in these countries. We already see the impact of western sanctions, they are not affecting government the same way they are hurting people living there. And one more thing. While Ukrainian government calls to west to leave Russian market to reduce money flow to Russian, one of main income for Russian government - gas pipeline to EU goes through Ukraine and no one even tries to sabotage it to really affect finances of hostile gov. I am against the war, but it does not mean I will built my ego by making other people to suffer only because it is a trend nowadays unfortunately in western world too

rosndo 5y ago
Hmm, a throwaway account with a single comment constructing a straw man to argue against western sanctions for the war. It’s simply an unfortunate reality that the Russian state can’t be punished for their actions without collateral damage. The purpose of the sanctions is to economically punish Russia in order to ensure that Russia and others do not repeat the same actions in the future. Furthermore, the sanctions create a huge distraction for the Russian leadership that’s already very busy with their war effort. Within months, the sanctions will also severely disrupt Russian military supply chains as they rely heavily on imports. > And no they would not make rebellion, but rather switch to government propaganda that “west hates us and wants our collapse”. Yeah, nobody cares. This isn’t the purpose of the sanctions. > my partner is Russian, both having families in these countries Same. My in-laws control one of the biggest exporters in Russia, their business has been severely hurt by the sanctions. Despite this, you won’t find many arguing against the sanctions in our circles, it’s simply the appropriate response to Putin’s folly.