5 ms·

Yes, there absolutely are policies that encourage people to climb to a perch from which it is incredibly easy to fall: social pressure against out-of-wedlock bi

by roc 15y ago

Yes, there absolutely are policies that encourage people to climb to a perch from which it is incredibly easy to fall: social pressure against out-of-wedlock births; ineffective sexual education; social stigma against and a lack of services providing female reproductive health in general, contraceptives, emergency contraceptives and abortion; the structure of our health system disincentivizing preventative medical care in general; bankruptcy 'reform'; predatory lending practices; social stigma against the trades; corporate abuse of the safety net to depress wages; college grants and their unregulated effect on tuition; the college loan system in general; regressive taxation; child tax credits; safety net rewards based on family size; the jarring transition between qualifying for social safety net programs and not qualifying; military rewards based on family size; subsidized sprawl and a lack of public transportation; zero-tolerance laws and policies; substandard school districts; etc.

nate_meurer 15y ago
"climb to a perch from which it is incredibly easy to fall" This is a succinct way to put it, and a good list. Can you say more about "social pressure against out-of-wedlock births"? You see this as another thing that encourages unsustainable lifestyles?
- shoota 15y ago
  It encourages people to get married when perhaps they do not wish to do so, thus increasing divorce.
  - anamax 15y ago
    > It encourages people to get married when perhaps they do not wish to do so, thus increasing divorce. There's divorce, and then there's divorce. No kids, not much of a problem. Economically, they're better off together, but .... Unwed parents are a disaster for both society and the kid(s). It's pretty much a guarantee of long-term poverty. Having kids is almost always a choice, a choice that has huge consequences.
    - malbs 15y ago
      > Unwed parents are a disaster for both society and the kid(s). It's pretty much a guarantee of long-term poverty. on what basis? My partner and I had our 3 children out of wedlock. Who are you to say that unwed parents is a lock-in to food stamps and crime? Next you'll be blaming unwed parents for the break down of the fabric of society. You are way out of line.
      - ars 15y ago
        If you are living exclusively together long term you are effectively married even if you don't have a paper saying so. Some states call it common law marriage, but even if they don't you are still effectively married. Marriage is not a piece of paper, marriage is a family structure.
      - temphn 15y ago
        Relatively few people who have three children out of wedlock are "Smalltalk hackers". Just sayin'.
    - anamax 15y ago
      It's great that you're providing a stable home, however that's the exception for unwed parents. Typically, the father wanders off and provides no support. None of the mother's options at that point are as good as a stable marriage/long-term relationship with the kid's father. That's how the statistics work out. We can argue about why that happens, but it's absurd to suggest that it doesn't. Parents' choices, and having kids is almost always a choice, have consequences.
anamax 15y ago
> ineffective sexual education; I don't know about the rest of you, but I've actually had significant interaction with young unwed mothers. Almost every one of them got pregnant intentionally. Yes, many will tell you a story at first, and "I couldn't afford it" does let them save face, which is pretty much all they've got left. But, after a while, it comes out that they knew exactly what they were doing. So, why did they want to get pregnant? A minor reason is that being a parent gets you some immediate respect. However, the big reason is one of the saddest things I've ever heard. "A baby has to love me." > regressive taxation The US doesn't have a regressive tax system. In fact, much of the volatility in tax revenues, which is killing CA, comes from being too progressive. (FWIW, EU countries tend to have a much flatter tax system.) "progressive" = fraction of income going to taxes increases with income. (Marginal rates are almost irrelevant, revenue is the only thing that matters.)
- mikeash 15y ago
  Are you taking into account payroll taxes, sales tax, property tax, etc., when deciding that the US's tax system is not regressive?
  - Symmetry 15y ago
    Yes, the US tax system is more progressive even including all of that. However, it is true that we spend less on social programs that benefit poor people.
  - anamax 15y ago
    Yes, but ssi is different - it is basically forced savings with a twist, not taxes. The twist is that the less you contribute, the higher your return.
    - mikeash 15y ago
      In what way is it different from any other tax? A percentage of your earnings goes into it, you have no control over what happens after that point, sounds like any other tax.

by roc 15y ago

nate_meurer 15y ago

"climb to a perch from which it is incredibly easy to fall" This is a succinct way to put it, and a good list. Can you say more about "social pressure against out-of-wedlock births"? You see this as another thing that encourages unsustainable lifestyles?

shoota 15y ago
It encourages people to get married when perhaps they do not wish to do so, thus increasing divorce.
- anamax 15y ago
  > It encourages people to get married when perhaps they do not wish to do so, thus increasing divorce. There's divorce, and then there's divorce. No kids, not much of a problem. Economically, they're better off together, but .... Unwed parents are a disaster for both society and the kid(s). It's pretty much a guarantee of long-term poverty. Having kids is almost always a choice, a choice that has huge consequences.
  - malbs 15y ago
    > Unwed parents are a disaster for both society and the kid(s). It's pretty much a guarantee of long-term poverty. on what basis? My partner and I had our 3 children out of wedlock. Who are you to say that unwed parents is a lock-in to food stamps and crime? Next you'll be blaming unwed parents for the break down of the fabric of society. You are way out of line.
    - ars 15y ago
      If you are living exclusively together long term you are effectively married even if you don't have a paper saying so. Some states call it common law marriage, but even if they don't you are still effectively married. Marriage is not a piece of paper, marriage is a family structure.
    - temphn 15y ago
      Relatively few people who have three children out of wedlock are "Smalltalk hackers". Just sayin'.
  - anamax 15y ago
    It's great that you're providing a stable home, however that's the exception for unwed parents. Typically, the father wanders off and provides no support. None of the mother's options at that point are as good as a stable marriage/long-term relationship with the kid's father. That's how the statistics work out. We can argue about why that happens, but it's absurd to suggest that it doesn't. Parents' choices, and having kids is almost always a choice, have consequences.

anamax 15y ago

> ineffective sexual education; I don't know about the rest of you, but I've actually had significant interaction with young unwed mothers. Almost every one of them got pregnant intentionally. Yes, many will tell you a story at first, and "I couldn't afford it" does let them save face, which is pretty much all they've got left. But, after a while, it comes out that they knew exactly what they were doing. So, why did they want to get pregnant? A minor reason is that being a parent gets you some immediate respect. However, the big reason is one of the saddest things I've ever heard. "A baby has to love me." > regressive taxation The US doesn't have a regressive tax system. In fact, much of the volatility in tax revenues, which is killing CA, comes from being too progressive. (FWIW, EU countries tend to have a much flatter tax system.) "progressive" = fraction of income going to taxes increases with income. (Marginal rates are almost irrelevant, revenue is the only thing that matters.)

mikeash 15y ago
Are you taking into account payroll taxes, sales tax, property tax, etc., when deciding that the US's tax system is not regressive?
- Symmetry 15y ago
  Yes, the US tax system is more progressive even including all of that. However, it is true that we spend less on social programs that benefit poor people.
- anamax 15y ago
  Yes, but ssi is different - it is basically forced savings with a twist, not taxes. The twist is that the less you contribute, the higher your return.
  - mikeash 15y ago
    In what way is it different from any other tax? A percentage of your earnings goes into it, you have no control over what happens after that point, sounds like any other tax.