5 ms·

Are you sure most systems even need to record gender or pronouns? Outside of medicine sex is rarely significant, and if by gender you mean masculine or feminine

Are you sure most systems even need to record gender or pronouns? Outside of medicine sex is rarely significant, and if by gender you mean masculine or feminine traits then again (other to the person themselves) it’s largely irrelevant I’d have thought.

kbelder 5y ago
In the marketing world, it's vastly predictive of behavior, similar to income level or political party. Men and women tend to have highly significant differences in shopping and purchasing behavior. So, whether they 'need' gender or not, many places 'want' gender.
stormbrew 5y ago
Pronouns can be useful in any system that generates text that refers to people in the third person, so makes sense to ask -- but it also makes sense to just let people put in whatever they want unless you are trying to aggregate data from it for marketing purposes, in which case imo you should stop doing that. > Outside of medicine sex is rarely significant Frankly, even inside of medicine it's usually not terribly relevant, and is often a poor proxy for the information they really want out of it. Half the time a medical form asks you that it's literally just so that cis men won't get mad at you for asking if they're pregnant on a later step. I won't be at all surprised if I get some kind of kneejerk reaction to this statement suggesting that it might be important in an emergency or something, but for the most part that's not really the case, and even where it is, if it's that important (ie. allergy level), it's not sufficient to avoid harm because you will have situations where neither "sex" or "gender" as commonly formulated on these forms will tell you what you really need to know (hormone balance, organ configuration, medical history). Any one of those could be out of alignment with whichever social construct of sexed traits you pick.
- bko 5y ago
  > Frankly, even inside of medicine it's usually not terribly relevant, and is often a poor proxy for the information they really want out of it. Sex is incredibly important inside medicine. It's probably the most important distinguishing characteristic when determining how to diagnose and treat someone (maybe weight is more). Here are a few examples: - 99% of breast cancer occurs in women - any diseases affecting the female[male] reproductive systems can only impact women[men] - 4x as many women suffer from osteoporosis - Roughly 70% of those living with autoimmune diseases are female - stomach cancer (2:1 men) oesophageal cancer (3:1 men) liver cancer (2:1 to 4:1 men) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_medicine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_medicine
  - stormbrew 5y ago
    Yep, called the kneejerk. These are statistical differences. If you want to know if they apply to an individual you need to know more. A checkbox on a form is not sufficient. If you're usefully aggregating data for some purpose, say for a study, then go off ask all the relevant indicators you want. If it's an intake form for an eye doctor appointment, it won't tell you dick all. If a patient came in for a breast exam, you already know they're at risk of cancer. If you're their family doctor figuring out risk factors, you already know their medical history. And if they're trans or intersex, and you're assuming that either their assigned sex or their self-declared gender tells you which bucket they fall in, you know a lot more than anyone else about how those traits affect those things because they are woefully understudied, and almost certainly complicated by literally everything in their medical history.
    - bko 5y ago
      > If it's an intake form for an eye doctor appointment, it won't tell you dick all. Where are you getting your information? Results: Sex and sex hormones influence the lacrimal system, eyelids and blinking, corneal anatomy and disease, aqueous humor dynamics and glaucoma, crystalline lens and cataract, uveitis and retinal disease, ocular circulation, and optic nerve anatomy and disease. Systemic conditions, particularly autoimmune disease, and conditions that are unique to women, such as pregnancy and menopause, further illustrate the effects of sex hormones on the eye. Gender-based differences in ocular conditions and disease should be considered within the context of the underlying physical and social environment. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19811761/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19811761/
      - a_shovel 5y ago
        Skimmed the paper on Scihub. It looks like it's mostly a review of other studies that either show statistical correlations or are about hormone levels. I.e. it directly supports their point that sex is just being used as a proxy for the thing that you really want to know. (And most of it seems irrelevant for someone with healthy eyes getting a new pair of glasses.)

kbelder 5y ago

In the marketing world, it's vastly predictive of behavior, similar to income level or political party. Men and women tend to have highly significant differences in shopping and purchasing behavior. So, whether they 'need' gender or not, many places 'want' gender.

stormbrew 5y ago

Pronouns can be useful in any system that generates text that refers to people in the third person, so makes sense to ask -- but it also makes sense to just let people put in whatever they want unless you are trying to aggregate data from it for marketing purposes, in which case imo you should stop doing that. > Outside of medicine sex is rarely significant Frankly, even inside of medicine it's usually not terribly relevant, and is often a poor proxy for the information they really want out of it. Half the time a medical form asks you that it's literally just so that cis men won't get mad at you for asking if they're pregnant on a later step. I won't be at all surprised if I get some kind of kneejerk reaction to this statement suggesting that it might be important in an emergency or something, but for the most part that's not really the case, and even where it is, if it's that important (ie. allergy level), it's not sufficient to avoid harm because you will have situations where neither "sex" or "gender" as commonly formulated on these forms will tell you what you really need to know (hormone balance, organ configuration, medical history). Any one of those could be out of alignment with whichever social construct of sexed traits you pick.

bko 5y ago
> Frankly, even inside of medicine it's usually not terribly relevant, and is often a poor proxy for the information they really want out of it. Sex is incredibly important inside medicine. It's probably the most important distinguishing characteristic when determining how to diagnose and treat someone (maybe weight is more). Here are a few examples: - 99% of breast cancer occurs in women - any diseases affecting the female[male] reproductive systems can only impact women[men] - 4x as many women suffer from osteoporosis - Roughly 70% of those living with autoimmune diseases are female - stomach cancer (2:1 men) oesophageal cancer (3:1 men) liver cancer (2:1 to 4:1 men) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_medicine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_medicine
- stormbrew 5y ago
  Yep, called the kneejerk. These are statistical differences. If you want to know if they apply to an individual you need to know more. A checkbox on a form is not sufficient. If you're usefully aggregating data for some purpose, say for a study, then go off ask all the relevant indicators you want. If it's an intake form for an eye doctor appointment, it won't tell you dick all. If a patient came in for a breast exam, you already know they're at risk of cancer. If you're their family doctor figuring out risk factors, you already know their medical history. And if they're trans or intersex, and you're assuming that either their assigned sex or their self-declared gender tells you which bucket they fall in, you know a lot more than anyone else about how those traits affect those things because they are woefully understudied, and almost certainly complicated by literally everything in their medical history.
  - bko 5y ago
    > If it's an intake form for an eye doctor appointment, it won't tell you dick all. Where are you getting your information? Results: Sex and sex hormones influence the lacrimal system, eyelids and blinking, corneal anatomy and disease, aqueous humor dynamics and glaucoma, crystalline lens and cataract, uveitis and retinal disease, ocular circulation, and optic nerve anatomy and disease. Systemic conditions, particularly autoimmune disease, and conditions that are unique to women, such as pregnancy and menopause, further illustrate the effects of sex hormones on the eye. Gender-based differences in ocular conditions and disease should be considered within the context of the underlying physical and social environment. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19811761/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19811761/
    - a_shovel 5y ago
      Skimmed the paper on Scihub. It looks like it's mostly a review of other studies that either show statistical correlations or are about hormone levels. I.e. it directly supports their point that sex is just being used as a proxy for the thing that you really want to know. (And most of it seems irrelevant for someone with healthy eyes getting a new pair of glasses.)