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How could the FTC require algorithmic destruction? How do you prove you destroyed something? Would you have to lobotomize everyone who had worked on building it

How could the FTC require algorithmic destruction? How do you prove you destroyed something? Would you have to lobotomize everyone who had worked on building it?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lallysingh 5y ago
I think the trained model. I don't think people will remember all the coefficients.
- sidewndr46 5y ago
  Right, but if the government says I have to turn over some nuts and bolts that I got through some illegal action I can just give them the location of my warehouse. Then the rightful owner can come pick them up with a government agent inspecting the process. If I have a bunch of drugs or chemicals I shouldn't have, I can give them the addresses and they can have government agents watch the destruction. If I have an algorithm (that is just a bunch of computer files) how do I prove I destroyed it? Do they literally just watch someone run "rm banned_model.bin" and then decide it's gone? It's basically impossible to prove you don't have a copy of something. There could always be a backup at another location. There could always be an encrypted copy stored somewhere that is impossible to detect. Any moderately well company has a service contract with a backup provider that acts an option of a last resort for restoring lost data. How do you get that provider to destroy their copy?
  - colejohnson66 5y ago
    You're right; There's not any way to prove it's gone completely. But in the real world, these hypotheticals can be handled through increasing fines and possible jailtime for contempt of court.
  - defen 5y ago
    In general, law is ok with good-faith mistakes if you obey the spirit of the law. If you forgot about an off-site backup but then deleted it when you found out about it, I doubt you'd get in much trouble. If you deliberately used a technological mechanism to evade a court order, you'd probably be in for a world of hurt if you got caught, but that's fundamentally no different than committing any other crime and hoping you don't get caught.
  - Tenoke 5y ago
    You can randomly check if the company is using the model down the line as well as rely on whistleblowers. If they don't use it there's little point for them to risk a fine by keeping it.
somesortofthing 5y ago
You don’t. Upon receiving a destruction order, a company can delete the trained model or not. If they do delete it, it’s all good. If they don’t delete it, they (hopefully)can’t get caught using it again without company-destroying fines. They can probably do some kind of recovery in most cases, but I doubt a judge would be very favorable to them if they’re caught disobeying such an unambiguous order.
- teeray 5y ago
  How does the FTC prove they’ve used a destroyed algorithm versus a reasonable facsimile? I feel like the lawyers are going to love the litigation that will come of this
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rossdavidh 5y ago
So, essentially, they require the company to pretend that they destroyed the "algorithm" (I think they actually mean machine learning model). If they don't, or they do but they had a copy, or they had used the knowledge to know which if several general purpose algorithms worked better at approximating it, there's essentially no way for an outside enforcement agency to know, and even with a whistleblower there's a real problem trying to enforce it. How do you prove, even if you have the database seized, which data the machine learning model came from? It's the same problem with saying "destroy that data", which is also difficult to enforce (and probably isn't), except that it's an additional level of difficulty in enforcing. I'm not saying they don't have a point, I'm just saying I don't see how they will be able to enforce this, even with whistleblowers. Whistleblower: "that ML model came from illegal data" Company: "No, it didn't." ...

How could the FTC require algorithmic destruction? How do you prove you destroyed something? Would you have to lobotomize everyone who had worked on building it?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

lallysingh 5y ago

I think the trained model. I don't think people will remember all the coefficients.

sidewndr46 5y ago
Right, but if the government says I have to turn over some nuts and bolts that I got through some illegal action I can just give them the location of my warehouse. Then the rightful owner can come pick them up with a government agent inspecting the process. If I have a bunch of drugs or chemicals I shouldn't have, I can give them the addresses and they can have government agents watch the destruction. If I have an algorithm (that is just a bunch of computer files) how do I prove I destroyed it? Do they literally just watch someone run "rm banned_model.bin" and then decide it's gone? It's basically impossible to prove you don't have a copy of something. There could always be a backup at another location. There could always be an encrypted copy stored somewhere that is impossible to detect. Any moderately well company has a service contract with a backup provider that acts an option of a last resort for restoring lost data. How do you get that provider to destroy their copy?
- colejohnson66 5y ago
  You're right; There's not any way to prove it's gone completely. But in the real world, these hypotheticals can be handled through increasing fines and possible jailtime for contempt of court.
- defen 5y ago
  In general, law is ok with good-faith mistakes if you obey the spirit of the law. If you forgot about an off-site backup but then deleted it when you found out about it, I doubt you'd get in much trouble. If you deliberately used a technological mechanism to evade a court order, you'd probably be in for a world of hurt if you got caught, but that's fundamentally no different than committing any other crime and hoping you don't get caught.
- Tenoke 5y ago
  You can randomly check if the company is using the model down the line as well as rely on whistleblowers. If they don't use it there's little point for them to risk a fine by keeping it.

somesortofthing 5y ago

You don’t. Upon receiving a destruction order, a company can delete the trained model or not. If they do delete it, it’s all good. If they don’t delete it, they (hopefully)can’t get caught using it again without company-destroying fines. They can probably do some kind of recovery in most cases, but I doubt a judge would be very favorable to them if they’re caught disobeying such an unambiguous order.

teeray 5y ago
How does the FTC prove they’ve used a destroyed algorithm versus a reasonable facsimile? I feel like the lawyers are going to love the litigation that will come of this

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

rossdavidh 5y ago

So, essentially, they require the company to pretend that they destroyed the "algorithm" (I think they actually mean machine learning model). If they don't, or they do but they had a copy, or they had used the knowledge to know which if several general purpose algorithms worked better at approximating it, there's essentially no way for an outside enforcement agency to know, and even with a whistleblower there's a real problem trying to enforce it. How do you prove, even if you have the database seized, which data the machine learning model came from? It's the same problem with saying "destroy that data", which is also difficult to enforce (and probably isn't), except that it's an additional level of difficulty in enforcing. I'm not saying they don't have a point, I'm just saying I don't see how they will be able to enforce this, even with whistleblowers. Whistleblower: "that ML model came from illegal data" Company: "No, it didn't." ...