5 ms·

> "It starts you out as a single parent with no savings and evidently no family members who will help you out...without any acknowledgement of the fact that bro

by roc 15y ago

> "It starts you out as a single parent with no savings and evidently no family members who will help you out...without any acknowledgement of the fact that broken homes, divorce, out-of-wedlock births, a lack of a high school diploma, and a failure to save are the major causes of poverty." Some people find it useful to walk a mile in the shoes of those affected by the policies they support. Whether you might ever choose or have to wear those shoes personally is rather beside the point. A dialogue tree that allowed the player to navigate life choices at an intellectual remove from real human life would simply reinforce our societal tendency to dodge the question of "what do we do with the struggling" by asserting that "I know better than them." edit: effect/affect

anamax 15y ago
> Some people find it useful to walk a mile in the shoes of those affected by the policies they support. Exactly which policies cause folks to get divorced (ie, get married young), have kids at a young age, and quit high school? Apart, of course, from the policies intended to reduce the effects of those decisions....
- akdetrick 15y ago
  I'd venture to guess that the choices you mention did not always carry the sort of consequences they do today. You're right, policy decisions don't cause more people to have kids at a young age. They do however, have an effect on joblessness [1], just to name one facet of the economic environment that now exists in the US. [1] http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z1ebjpgk2654c1_&met_y=unemployment_rate&tdim=true&fdim_y=seasonality:S&dl=en&hl=en&q=unemployment+rate+us http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z1ebjpgk2654c1_&...
  - vacri 15y ago
    You're right, policy decisions don't cause more people to have kids at a young age. 'Abstinence only' sex education causes more people to have kids at a young age, because it prevents more people from learning what options there are available. Add into that the issue that young people have always been difficult to stop fucking each other throughout history, and combine with the highly sexualised modern society, and 'Abstinence only' sex education is, frankly, evil.
- roc 15y ago
  Yes, there absolutely are policies that encourage people to climb to a perch from which it is incredibly easy to fall: social pressure against out-of-wedlock births; ineffective sexual education; social stigma against and a lack of services providing female reproductive health in general, contraceptives, emergency contraceptives and abortion; the structure of our health system disincentivizing preventative medical care in general; bankruptcy 'reform'; predatory lending practices; social stigma against the trades; corporate abuse of the safety net to depress wages; college grants and their unregulated effect on tuition; the college loan system in general; regressive taxation; child tax credits; safety net rewards based on family size; the jarring transition between qualifying for social safety net programs and not qualifying; military rewards based on family size; subsidized sprawl and a lack of public transportation; zero-tolerance laws and policies; substandard school districts; etc.
  - nate_meurer 15y ago
    "climb to a perch from which it is incredibly easy to fall" This is a succinct way to put it, and a good list. Can you say more about "social pressure against out-of-wedlock births"? You see this as another thing that encourages unsustainable lifestyles?
    - shoota 15y ago
      It encourages people to get married when perhaps they do not wish to do so, thus increasing divorce.
      - anamax 15y ago
        > It encourages people to get married when perhaps they do not wish to do so, thus increasing divorce. There's divorce, and then there's divorce. No kids, not much of a problem. Economically, they're better off together, but .... Unwed parents are a disaster for both society and the kid(s). It's pretty much a guarantee of long-term poverty. Having kids is almost always a choice, a choice that has huge consequences.
        15y ago
- dlikhten 15y ago
  Problem is that not all those are "decisions" people make. Many of those are not decisions but arise out of life circumstances. However many times people do chose to do the "fun" thing and instead of strive for a good job take the easy way out. That easy way is short-sighted. Unfortunately we are seeing life from the walls of the castle, staring at the peasents saying "shame on you for not being royalty". However over the years I've grown to think that maybe 60%+ of the cause of people being poor is their fault. I see my friend partying every fucking night. She has no money. I have plenty of money yet cannot party because I have responsibilities. Yet when shit hits the fan, I have a buffer while she goes into a "shit my life is going nowhere" regression. Sure her circumstances did not allow her to get the same living environment as I did, she is not a mathematically-inclined person, but she went to college, got a worthless degree after 4 yrs, and now complains how she has no money. She barely works, when she does its not for long periods of time, and is older than I am. So yea, my sympathy has been declining. Shoulda finished high school. Shoulda gone to a community college and studied your ass off. Shoulda worn a rubber till you were ready. Now it's too late, and you are standing there with your arms in the air begging for help.
  - anamax 15y ago
    > Problem is that not all those are "decisions" people make. Many of those are not decisions but arise out of life circumstances. Almost all pregnancy is the result of a decision to have sex. Yes, contraceptives fail sometimes, but that doesn't explain teen pregnancy rates. And, in the US at least, contraceptives are free, and have been for decades. Yes, even in rural/backwoods US. > but she went to college, got a worthless degree after 4 yrs, and now complains how she has no money. I think that schools should be on the hook for student loans. Yes, including non-profit and state schools. And no, grants shouldn't be increased. 4 years of effort should have some lifetime economic benefit.
dhughes 15y ago
Then you're a mile away and you've got their shoes.

by roc 15y ago

anamax 15y ago

> Some people find it useful to walk a mile in the shoes of those affected by the policies they support. Exactly which policies cause folks to get divorced (ie, get married young), have kids at a young age, and quit high school? Apart, of course, from the policies intended to reduce the effects of those decisions....

akdetrick 15y ago
I'd venture to guess that the choices you mention did not always carry the sort of consequences they do today. You're right, policy decisions don't cause more people to have kids at a young age. They do however, have an effect on joblessness [1], just to name one facet of the economic environment that now exists in the US. [1] http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z1ebjpgk2654c1_&met_y=unemployment_rate&tdim=true&fdim_y=seasonality:S&dl=en&hl=en&q=unemployment+rate+us http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z1ebjpgk2654c1_&...
- vacri 15y ago
  You're right, policy decisions don't cause more people to have kids at a young age. 'Abstinence only' sex education causes more people to have kids at a young age, because it prevents more people from learning what options there are available. Add into that the issue that young people have always been difficult to stop fucking each other throughout history, and combine with the highly sexualised modern society, and 'Abstinence only' sex education is, frankly, evil.
roc 15y ago
Yes, there absolutely are policies that encourage people to climb to a perch from which it is incredibly easy to fall: social pressure against out-of-wedlock births; ineffective sexual education; social stigma against and a lack of services providing female reproductive health in general, contraceptives, emergency contraceptives and abortion; the structure of our health system disincentivizing preventative medical care in general; bankruptcy 'reform'; predatory lending practices; social stigma against the trades; corporate abuse of the safety net to depress wages; college grants and their unregulated effect on tuition; the college loan system in general; regressive taxation; child tax credits; safety net rewards based on family size; the jarring transition between qualifying for social safety net programs and not qualifying; military rewards based on family size; subsidized sprawl and a lack of public transportation; zero-tolerance laws and policies; substandard school districts; etc.
- nate_meurer 15y ago
  "climb to a perch from which it is incredibly easy to fall" This is a succinct way to put it, and a good list. Can you say more about "social pressure against out-of-wedlock births"? You see this as another thing that encourages unsustainable lifestyles?
  - shoota 15y ago
    It encourages people to get married when perhaps they do not wish to do so, thus increasing divorce.
    - anamax 15y ago
      > It encourages people to get married when perhaps they do not wish to do so, thus increasing divorce. There's divorce, and then there's divorce. No kids, not much of a problem. Economically, they're better off together, but .... Unwed parents are a disaster for both society and the kid(s). It's pretty much a guarantee of long-term poverty. Having kids is almost always a choice, a choice that has huge consequences.
      - 15y ago
dlikhten 15y ago
Problem is that not all those are "decisions" people make. Many of those are not decisions but arise out of life circumstances. However many times people do chose to do the "fun" thing and instead of strive for a good job take the easy way out. That easy way is short-sighted. Unfortunately we are seeing life from the walls of the castle, staring at the peasents saying "shame on you for not being royalty". However over the years I've grown to think that maybe 60%+ of the cause of people being poor is their fault. I see my friend partying every fucking night. She has no money. I have plenty of money yet cannot party because I have responsibilities. Yet when shit hits the fan, I have a buffer while she goes into a "shit my life is going nowhere" regression. Sure her circumstances did not allow her to get the same living environment as I did, she is not a mathematically-inclined person, but she went to college, got a worthless degree after 4 yrs, and now complains how she has no money. She barely works, when she does its not for long periods of time, and is older than I am. So yea, my sympathy has been declining. Shoulda finished high school. Shoulda gone to a community college and studied your ass off. Shoulda worn a rubber till you were ready. Now it's too late, and you are standing there with your arms in the air begging for help.
- anamax 15y ago
  > Problem is that not all those are "decisions" people make. Many of those are not decisions but arise out of life circumstances. Almost all pregnancy is the result of a decision to have sex. Yes, contraceptives fail sometimes, but that doesn't explain teen pregnancy rates. And, in the US at least, contraceptives are free, and have been for decades. Yes, even in rural/backwoods US. > but she went to college, got a worthless degree after 4 yrs, and now complains how she has no money. I think that schools should be on the hook for student loans. Yes, including non-profit and state schools. And no, grants shouldn't be increased. 4 years of effort should have some lifetime economic benefit.

dhughes 15y ago

Then you're a mile away and you've got their shoes.