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You don’t have to wonder: There have been many truly patent free codecs and the answer is mostly “Try to convince companies to adopt it even though they have a

You don’t have to wonder: There have been many truly patent free codecs and the answer is mostly “Try to convince companies to adopt it even though they have a vested interest in using codecs they control” For example: FLAC

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
FLAC is actually much more widely supported than, for example, Vorbis.
- joshspankit 5y ago
  FLAC was released in 2001 and widely popular by at least 2006. With much fanfare, iOS11 (2017) was the first time iOS supported playing FLAC files and that was (and still is) not the Apple-branded “Music” app but only in the “Files” app.
- account42 5y ago
  Vorbis has been pretty much entirely obsoleted by Opus so there wouldn't have been much incentive for new Vorbis support since then - is there a similarly decisive open successor for FLAC?
  - joshspankit 5y ago
    I certainly have not seen one. FLAC is either A) the best option for free lossless music encoding, or B) The music industry is way too big of a heavy hitter to let any others build momentum
ksec 5y ago
The problem was FLAC wasn't patent free but claims to be not covered by any patent. That is quite a bit of difference from a legal perspective. One could argue about patent system and its usage, but most companies ( ignoring Tech and Internet companies ) tend to avoid them. Especially when there are alternative. And consumer tends to just use whatever they want. I remember I picked Wavepack over FLAC in that era. But I cant record the reason any more it was just too long ago.
- account42 5y ago
  > The problem was FLAC wasn't patent free but claims to be not covered by any patent. That is quite a bit of difference from a legal perspective. What is that difference? It's not like you can proove that anything is not covered by any patent without being sued by every patent holder and winning.
  - ksec 5y ago
    >What is that difference? It's not like you can proove that anything is not covered by any patent When you have a codec that have all patent expired after 20 years. That is guaranteed patent free, because you can no longer extract patent from it. Claiming you dont have any patent just means you think it is not covered by any patents until proven.
- joshspankit 5y ago
  > The FLAC and Ogg FLAC formats themselves, and their specifications, are fully open to the public to be used for any purpose (the FLAC project reserves the right to set the FLAC specification and certify compliance). They are free for commercial or noncommercial use. That means that commercial developers may independently write FLAC or Ogg FLAC software which is compatible with the specifications for no charge and without restrictions of any kind. There are no licensing fees or royalties of any kind for use of the formats or their specifications, or for distributing, selling, or streaming media in the FLAC or Ogg FLAC formats. While I know through experience that you have a point about some companies avoiding anything that might be patent encumbered, and that the statement “[FLAC is not] covered by any known patent.“ would be a red flag to them, the argument falls down when we talk about how much code has been used over the years by companies who stepped all over the intellectual property rights of the authors. Even if we look at Mp3s which are definitively patent-encumbered and commercially-licensed, here have been thousands of devices that played Mp3s before they a license (if they ever got one at all).

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago

FLAC is actually much more widely supported than, for example, Vorbis.

joshspankit 5y ago
FLAC was released in 2001 and widely popular by at least 2006. With much fanfare, iOS11 (2017) was the first time iOS supported playing FLAC files and that was (and still is) not the Apple-branded “Music” app but only in the “Files” app.
account42 5y ago
Vorbis has been pretty much entirely obsoleted by Opus so there wouldn't have been much incentive for new Vorbis support since then - is there a similarly decisive open successor for FLAC?
- joshspankit 5y ago
  I certainly have not seen one. FLAC is either A) the best option for free lossless music encoding, or B) The music industry is way too big of a heavy hitter to let any others build momentum

ksec 5y ago

The problem was FLAC wasn't patent free but claims to be not covered by any patent. That is quite a bit of difference from a legal perspective. One could argue about patent system and its usage, but most companies ( ignoring Tech and Internet companies ) tend to avoid them. Especially when there are alternative. And consumer tends to just use whatever they want. I remember I picked Wavepack over FLAC in that era. But I cant record the reason any more it was just too long ago.

account42 5y ago
> The problem was FLAC wasn't patent free but claims to be not covered by any patent. That is quite a bit of difference from a legal perspective. What is that difference? It's not like you can proove that anything is not covered by any patent without being sued by every patent holder and winning.
- ksec 5y ago
  >What is that difference? It's not like you can proove that anything is not covered by any patent When you have a codec that have all patent expired after 20 years. That is guaranteed patent free, because you can no longer extract patent from it. Claiming you dont have any patent just means you think it is not covered by any patents until proven.
joshspankit 5y ago
> The FLAC and Ogg FLAC formats themselves, and their specifications, are fully open to the public to be used for any purpose (the FLAC project reserves the right to set the FLAC specification and certify compliance). They are free for commercial or noncommercial use. That means that commercial developers may independently write FLAC or Ogg FLAC software which is compatible with the specifications for no charge and without restrictions of any kind. There are no licensing fees or royalties of any kind for use of the formats or their specifications, or for distributing, selling, or streaming media in the FLAC or Ogg FLAC formats. While I know through experience that you have a point about some companies avoiding anything that might be patent encumbered, and that the statement “[FLAC is not] covered by any known patent.“ would be a red flag to them, the argument falls down when we talk about how much code has been used over the years by companies who stepped all over the intellectual property rights of the authors. Even if we look at Mp3s which are definitively patent-encumbered and commercially-licensed, here have been thousands of devices that played Mp3s before they a license (if they ever got one at all).