3 ms·

> it was a show about the good guys winning easily We must have watched a different show. It was a show about the good guys losing, people who were "right" bei

by the_af 5y ago

> it was a show about the good guys winning easily We must have watched a different show. It was a show about the good guys losing, people who were "right" being killed, people who were "wrong" mostly being in command until very late in the show, and potential heroes being offed in the first season. There was a whole bunch of memes about not getting too attached to a likable "good" character, since Martin was likely to kill him/her.

tsimionescu 5y ago
And yet, in the end, the good guys won, this is my point. The bad guys had a few temporary wins along the way, but they all lost in the end. Every last bad character died, almost all good characters survived and became the new lords and ladies of Westeros.
- the_af 5y ago
  Sort of. The good guys won at the very end, and it wasn't easy. And lots of good characters were tortured and died along the way. It wasn't a clear cut "easy" win for the good guys. A major moral character dies in the first season!
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    They won the "Battle for the Dawn" in a few hours only losing half their army or less and only two significant characters mid-way through the season. They then won the final battle with even fewer losses after a few hours of fighting, with no major characters dying, in what would have been a clean victory where they would have been hailed as saviors, had Daenerys not gone insane after the victory. Even she was then easily defeated, with little consequence for her killer or the former prime Minister who publically condemned her, despite the fact that the kingdom was under the control of her fanatically loyal general and his fanatically loyal troops. There were more characters committing what amounted to suicide in the final few season than those who were killed by the horrors of war or scheming enemies. I would call all of this quite easy. Sure, along the way in previous seasons, a lot were tortured and died, but many of them turned out not to matter too much at all in the overall plot (particularly, Rob Stark, and arguably, Jamie Lannister).
    - the_af 5y ago
      So the good guys mostly lost through the show, many permanently killed, with whole cities laid to waste and innocents and guilty alike slaughtered, and the victors proved either morally gray or outright mad, and they only won at the very end of the series, and you consider this "easily winning"? I guess the Allies also "easily won" against Hitler then ;)
- DocTomoe 5y ago
  > the good guys won That is very debatable. I don't think there were good guys in the end. Or bad ones, for that matter.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    No, there were very clear good guys, with slight shades of gray - Sansa, Sam, Davos, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Brianne, Bran, Robin, Yara: all of their actions in the final few seasons are portrayed as at least justified if not outright heroic, even some of those that were arguably psychotic (Arya slaughtering the Freys and feeding them to Walder). Conversely, there were very clear bad guys, with no redeeming qualities: The Night's King, Euron Greyjoy, Cersei, The Mountain, Qyburn, and Daenerys after she goes mad. There were a few characters portrayed as morally gray (Jamie, Bron, perhaps Varys and Greyworm). But the vast majority were very clearly portrayed as either heroes or villains in the final season.
    - the_af 5y ago
      I partially disagree, and think GRRM (and the TV show) mostly paint morally ambiguous characters with some redeeming qualities and some grievous flaws. > Sansa, Sam, Davos, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Brianne, Bran, Robin, Yara Of these, I consider only Sam, Davos and Brienne to be "clear good guys". Jon arguably comes last. You missed Eddard, the one truly moral character that gets killed because of this (I think this was GRRM effectively showing that moral good guys will get killed if they cannot be a little devious). Let me explain why the others aren't, in my opinion: - Sansa is portrayed almost as stupidly naive. From the beginning she buys into all sort of courtly things that -- even if true -- were pretty shallow. And they turned out to be untrue. When she finally wakes up to the harsh realities, later in the show, she becomes manipulative and cold. She's on the right side, sure, but you can easily see her turning into another Cersei, given the chance. So she's either painfully stupid or dangerously vindictive. - Arya joins a death cult and becomes callous. She's driven by hatred and vengeance. Again, you could easily see her turning into an assassin for hire. You already mentioned her psychotic outbursts. - Tyrion... well, there's a lovable but definitely morally gray character. No need to explain further, I'm surprised you included him as a clear-cut "good" guy. Maybe because he's the only likable Lannister and stole the TV show. - Bran starts as likable and gradually turns into an enigmatic, unempathetic, alien creature. Who knows what he's thinking, he certainly won't tell. Some fans speculated (incorrectly, it turns out) he was going to turn into a Big Bad mastermind by the end of the show. Even if this was incorrect, it shows the character was not perceived as unarguably "good". - Robin. Is this the teenage lord of the Eyrie, the one who still was sucking from his mother's breast, was very capricious, easily manipulated, and eager to let prisoners "fly" out of the Moon door? This was a very creepy character, not a good guy. - Yara. An amoral pirate, willing to kill or be killed for power. It just happened that she didn't truly hate her brother and that her relatives were even worse. Re: the bad guys. I mostly agree with your list except (Euron Greyjoy in particular was an irritating charicature, and they didn't even bother with the Night's King), but for two exceptions: - Cersei. It's true she's the main villain -- other than the walkers -- of the latter seasons, but she's nuanced. She's obviously suffered. She's driven mad by grief and power lust, but she's also a woman in a world of men. She refuses to become simply the concubine of a powerful lord, or a mother. And she's truly capable of love, though the objects of her affections are sometimes misplaced (and she's quick to hate as well). I think there are admirable traits in Cersei's character, not enough to overlook she's also a mad, self-destructive murderess, but enough to consider she has her shades of gray. - Daenerys is mostly the good gal until she suddenly turns mad. You don't get to ignore she was good for most of the series, so you cannot place her in the "clear bad guys" box. Re: gray characters. Yes, Jame, Bron, Varys. Most in the small court in Kingslanding. Most of the nobles. Most of the soldiers, be it free men or slaves. I don't you can claim most weren't gray, when the whole show is populated mostly by morally gray characters! The final episodes of the final season are not the whole show. If they were, you could claim Cersei is mostly a dead woman in GoT, just because she dies in the final chapter.

by the_af 5y ago

tsimionescu 5y ago

And yet, in the end, the good guys won, this is my point. The bad guys had a few temporary wins along the way, but they all lost in the end. Every last bad character died, almost all good characters survived and became the new lords and ladies of Westeros.

the_af 5y ago
Sort of. The good guys won at the very end, and it wasn't easy. And lots of good characters were tortured and died along the way. It wasn't a clear cut "easy" win for the good guys. A major moral character dies in the first season!
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  They won the "Battle for the Dawn" in a few hours only losing half their army or less and only two significant characters mid-way through the season. They then won the final battle with even fewer losses after a few hours of fighting, with no major characters dying, in what would have been a clean victory where they would have been hailed as saviors, had Daenerys not gone insane after the victory. Even she was then easily defeated, with little consequence for her killer or the former prime Minister who publically condemned her, despite the fact that the kingdom was under the control of her fanatically loyal general and his fanatically loyal troops. There were more characters committing what amounted to suicide in the final few season than those who were killed by the horrors of war or scheming enemies. I would call all of this quite easy. Sure, along the way in previous seasons, a lot were tortured and died, but many of them turned out not to matter too much at all in the overall plot (particularly, Rob Stark, and arguably, Jamie Lannister).
  - the_af 5y ago
    So the good guys mostly lost through the show, many permanently killed, with whole cities laid to waste and innocents and guilty alike slaughtered, and the victors proved either morally gray or outright mad, and they only won at the very end of the series, and you consider this "easily winning"? I guess the Allies also "easily won" against Hitler then ;)
DocTomoe 5y ago
> the good guys won That is very debatable. I don't think there were good guys in the end. Or bad ones, for that matter.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  No, there were very clear good guys, with slight shades of gray - Sansa, Sam, Davos, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Brianne, Bran, Robin, Yara: all of their actions in the final few seasons are portrayed as at least justified if not outright heroic, even some of those that were arguably psychotic (Arya slaughtering the Freys and feeding them to Walder). Conversely, there were very clear bad guys, with no redeeming qualities: The Night's King, Euron Greyjoy, Cersei, The Mountain, Qyburn, and Daenerys after she goes mad. There were a few characters portrayed as morally gray (Jamie, Bron, perhaps Varys and Greyworm). But the vast majority were very clearly portrayed as either heroes or villains in the final season.
  - the_af 5y ago
    I partially disagree, and think GRRM (and the TV show) mostly paint morally ambiguous characters with some redeeming qualities and some grievous flaws. > Sansa, Sam, Davos, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Brianne, Bran, Robin, Yara Of these, I consider only Sam, Davos and Brienne to be "clear good guys". Jon arguably comes last. You missed Eddard, the one truly moral character that gets killed because of this (I think this was GRRM effectively showing that moral good guys will get killed if they cannot be a little devious). Let me explain why the others aren't, in my opinion: - Sansa is portrayed almost as stupidly naive. From the beginning she buys into all sort of courtly things that -- even if true -- were pretty shallow. And they turned out to be untrue. When she finally wakes up to the harsh realities, later in the show, she becomes manipulative and cold. She's on the right side, sure, but you can easily see her turning into another Cersei, given the chance. So she's either painfully stupid or dangerously vindictive. - Arya joins a death cult and becomes callous. She's driven by hatred and vengeance. Again, you could easily see her turning into an assassin for hire. You already mentioned her psychotic outbursts. - Tyrion... well, there's a lovable but definitely morally gray character. No need to explain further, I'm surprised you included him as a clear-cut "good" guy. Maybe because he's the only likable Lannister and stole the TV show. - Bran starts as likable and gradually turns into an enigmatic, unempathetic, alien creature. Who knows what he's thinking, he certainly won't tell. Some fans speculated (incorrectly, it turns out) he was going to turn into a Big Bad mastermind by the end of the show. Even if this was incorrect, it shows the character was not perceived as unarguably "good". - Robin. Is this the teenage lord of the Eyrie, the one who still was sucking from his mother's breast, was very capricious, easily manipulated, and eager to let prisoners "fly" out of the Moon door? This was a very creepy character, not a good guy. - Yara. An amoral pirate, willing to kill or be killed for power. It just happened that she didn't truly hate her brother and that her relatives were even worse. Re: the bad guys. I mostly agree with your list except (Euron Greyjoy in particular was an irritating charicature, and they didn't even bother with the Night's King), but for two exceptions: - Cersei. It's true she's the main villain -- other than the walkers -- of the latter seasons, but she's nuanced. She's obviously suffered. She's driven mad by grief and power lust, but she's also a woman in a world of men. She refuses to become simply the concubine of a powerful lord, or a mother. And she's truly capable of love, though the objects of her affections are sometimes misplaced (and she's quick to hate as well). I think there are admirable traits in Cersei's character, not enough to overlook she's also a mad, self-destructive murderess, but enough to consider she has her shades of gray. - Daenerys is mostly the good gal until she suddenly turns mad. You don't get to ignore she was good for most of the series, so you cannot place her in the "clear bad guys" box. Re: gray characters. Yes, Jame, Bron, Varys. Most in the small court in Kingslanding. Most of the nobles. Most of the soldiers, be it free men or slaves. I don't you can claim most weren't gray, when the whole show is populated mostly by morally gray characters! The final episodes of the final season are not the whole show. If they were, you could claim Cersei is mostly a dead woman in GoT, just because she dies in the final chapter.