10 ms·

I remember when this came out. I agree with the sentiment, but I think that as an audience you have every right to feel cheated that someone told you half a sto

by imgabe 5y ago

I remember when this came out. I agree with the sentiment, but I think that as an audience you have every right to feel cheated that someone told you half a story and then never finished it. Sure, they didn't owe it to you, but it's still a shitty thing to do. Like if a friend offered to help you move and then never showed up. Hey, I'm not your bitch! They might say. No, but they said they'd do something and then they didn't do it, so from now on people are going to take that into consideration and rightly consider them a bullshitter who doesn't follow through. I've pretty much written off any hope of ever reading the rest of A Song of Ice and Fire and also The Kingkiller Chronicles (by a different, also wildly unreliable author, what is it with these guys). Yeah, they're not my bitch. They don't owe me anything, it just sucks that they turned out to be bullshitters.

major505 5y ago
Specially since the fact that George R. Martin can now enjoy his life, and not work is thanks to this same audience. Those who treat their audience like shit, is due to lost everything.
- Veen 5y ago
  His readers (not audience) paid to buy the books he had written. They didn't pay him to write books in the future. I really don't understand this bizarre "fandom" idea that a writer owes his readers something beyond what they have paid for. It's a polite fiction that some writers unfortunately indulge, but the fact that you've paid a small amount of money to read a book doesn't impose any future obligation on its author. His publishers might have cause to be annoyed if they have a contract for more books, but the readers, however disappointed, don't have a moral right to dictate a writer's future labour. And that's what writing novels is—it's work for money, like programming or plumbing, not some mystical calling or vocation.
  - hoseja 5y ago
    They bought the books with the illusion they might someday read the ending. A lot of them wouldn't have bought the books if they knew there will never be a conclusion.
    - lupire 5y ago
      GOT TV ended at S8 and the only happy viewers are the ones who stopped after S6.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    No, his readers paid and followed him to hear a story. Of course he doesn't literally, in a legal sense, owe anything to them. And of course they are not entitled to harass him in any way. But they are entitled to feel cheated, and loudly proclaim that they were cheated. Especially with a story as full of intrigue as A Song of Ice and Fire. By comparison, fans of Agatha Christie's work would not have any entitlement to complain if she stopped after three novels, as those novels were complete works in and of themselves. But they would have every reason to complain if she published the first half of And Then There Were None, but never published the ending.
    - thfuran 5y ago
      >By comparison, fans of Agatha Christie's work would not have any entitlement to complain if she stopped after three novels Of course they would.
      - tsimionescu 5y ago
        Why? Do you feel that The Murder of Roger Ackroyd is not telling a complete story unless you also read Murder on the Orient Express? Note that I'm not saying some fans wouldn't have been pressuring her into writing more if she had stopped. I'm saying those fans, unlike the ASOIAF fandom, wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
        lupire 5y ago
        "complete story" doesn't exist. Every story has details not followed up on. Just like real life. LOST had an ending but it was terrible because the story kept piling on more bullshit. GOT TV had an ending and it was terrible. ASOIAF is a short chronicle (yet still full of many great characterizations, episodes, and plot lines) of characters coming and going through the world. Some plot lines start in the middle, some end in the middle, because neither us nor GRRM are immortal beings.
        thfuran 5y ago
        >Do you feel that The Murder of Roger Ackroyd is not telling a complete story unless you also read Murder on the Orient Express? That's completely irrelevant. Everyone is entitled to feel however they feel and think whatever they think and should not be precluded from voicing their opinions. Why should your opinion of the relative completeness of one story versus another determine whether someone else is permitted to express disappointment with a story?
  - long_time_gone 5y ago
    > They didn't pay him to write books in the future. I really don't understand this bizarre "fandom" idea that a writer owes his readers something beyond what they have paid for. Do this day, 12 years after this was written, he blogs about how the books are his top priority. He is certainly giving his readers the idea that he owes them a finish by constantly communicating that he will finish.
  - major505 5y ago
    I paid with the expectation that he would finish the story. Since he didn't I wont buy more of his books until he stop procrastinanting other porjects and release the full story.
  - major505 5y ago
    Look, I understand. If I had made so much money like he had, I would be now snoring cocaine over strippers instead of writing. But I had the expecation that in his age, he would be more responsable then me.
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    > They didn't pay him to write books in the future. No, but HBO did, he (co?)wrote Fire and Blood to give them material for a new GoT style TV show; they probably paid him so much to cram its writing in between the mainline ASoIaF books. On top of the licenses for the once popular TV show.
  - the_af 5y ago
    > And that's what writing novels is—it's work for money, like programming or plumbing, not some mystical calling or vocation. I agree with your overall comment, but this is not entirely true. For many writers, writing is a vocation. They would do it even if they couldn't make a living out of it, just like a painter would paint even if nobody commissioned any of their work. It just happens that for a relatively small percentage of writers, writing is a viable way to make enough money to make a living.
rob74 5y ago
Ok, in the case of a series of novels the promise to eventually finish the story is not explicit, as in someone promising to help you move, but other than that, I agree with the point you are making. For Stephen King, it took 22 years and a wake up call in the form of an accident that nearly killed him to get him to finish his "magnum opus", the Dark Tower cycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Tower_(series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Tower_(series)). So I haven't completely given up hope about ASOIAF yet, but I'm not holding my breath either...
- imgabe 5y ago
  I mean, it's kind of implicit when someone starts telling a story that the story is going to come to some kind of conclusion at some point since that's how stories work. It's not something that usually needs to be stated. I take your point though, but I think they've also explicitly stated that they intend to finish it at some point.
  - mcphage 5y ago
    > when someone starts telling a story that the story is going to come to some kind of conclusion at some point since that's how stories work Yes, but you bought the start of the stories. You didn't buy the conclusion. There's no cheating involved.
    - tsimionescu 5y ago
      The start is only valuable if there is an end, especially for a novel built on mystery and intrigue. When George RR Martin will, sadly, die without having finished A Song of Ice and Fire, all its parts will be forgotten by history (except, perhaps, A Game of Thrones), as they only work as scaffolding for a future ending (save a few extraordinary moments here and there, like the Red Wedding). But if by some miracle he finishes them (and it would be a miracle by this point, given he has spent more than a decade writing the next book, with no end in sight), and if the finale holds up to the quality of the mysteries he has built up, then it may be remembered right next to Lord of the Rings as one of fantasy writing's greatest masterpieces.
marvin 5y ago
To be fair, both A Song of Ice and Fire and The Kingkiller Chronicles is magnificently inspired and novel writing, more so than most that of some very consistent and prolific authors. I could certainly empathize with them running out of inspiration after some years. I'd rather read the first Kingkiller books for the first time than all of Expeditionary Force, for instance. I'd rather live in a world where Martin and Rothfuss never finished their masterpieces than a world where the unfinished works never even existed. I haven't had many literary experiences that so vividly stimulated my imagination as these. Maybe they could both hire Brandon Sanderson to finish their works someday. He's both incredibly prolific and for the most part very creative and novel. I guess that's why he was hired to finish Robert Jordan's series. It was certainly a good fit, all things considered. In fact -- has any fan fiction been published that attempts to continue these works? I could imagine that as a genre, but of course it would be a Herculean effort that would unlikely be successful unless attempted by an author that's already world-class.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  I don't know The Kingiller Chronicles so I'm not going to comment on that, but I don't think you can call A Song of Ice and Fire a masterpiece until you see it's ending. A lot of the quality is in the intricate plots it implies, but it has yet to resolve the vast majority of them, and if it falls flat, a lot of the majesty of what was started will turn put to have been smoke and mirrors. This is what the Game of Thrones TV show proved: overall the show should not be considered a masterpiece, even though the early seasons seemed good at the time, since the stories they were telling mostly led nowhere. Sure, it had its excellent moments, but that's about it - overall, it was a show about the good guys winning easily, women being irrational and just kinda forgetting, armies fighting without consequences, and so on. The fact that the early seasons made you think it would be a different story was proven an illusion by the end.
  - iamsaitam 5y ago
    This is the issue in today's market driven society, there's a big crowd which seems very open to forgetting the pleasures brought up during the development process, when the end comes and is not to their liking. They would all be much more content if they weren't so keen in erasing their own memory.
mkdirp 5y ago
While you're right, you can feel cheated, it shouldn't mean that you need to nag someone about it. I've not read the books (though saying I was disappointed with the ending of the TV adaptation, is a massive understatement), but I've had other examples. All that should do is lose trust in that person, and potentially avoid their uncompleted other work, because the same thing might happen. Taking your example, if my friend doesn't show up, assuming I don't buy his excuse, it means a) I lose trust in him when it comes to something that matter, and b) I'm less likely to ask him to help me move next time.
- imgabe 5y ago
  You're right, nobody should be harassing the authors. That doesn't mean they can't voice their disappointment, even publicly, even in places where the authors might read it and feel bad and cause other authors to write defensive posts about not being anyone's bitch. While the people harassing the authors are a bigger pain in the ass, those people at least still care. The bigger problem will be all the fans who silently drift away. The ones who, when a friend asks them about the series, will tell them "yeah, don't bother with that, it's never going to be finished".
  - mcphage 5y ago
    > That doesn't mean they can't voice their disappointment, even publicly, even in places where the authors might read it and feel bad and cause other authors to write defensive posts This was "writing to another author attempting to egg him on to also voice his disappointment". Neil Gaiman didn't just stumble across someone's voiced disappointment, it was specifically directed to him. They just didn't get the response they were hoping for.
trabant00 5y ago
A Song of Ice was that twisted the plots in a way that made you wonder just how on earth will it all end. That is a big part of the appeal to the books. The catch is the plots don't go anywhere and there was never a plan for them to do so. So it doesn't just "feels like being cheated". It really is cheating. Over promising and hyping and never delivering.
fabian2k 5y ago
Rothfuss is a special case as he, or at least his publisher claimed that the next two books were already written and only needed to be edited. That was one of the reasons I bought the first book early before any later books were released. Starting an unfinished series is always a gamble, I generally don't mind it but I'm also okay with not always getting a satisfying conclusion, or any conclusion at all. But I don't appreciate being lied to about the state of the later books like this. For larger series with more than 2-3 planned books I would generally be wary now, and the only one of that kind I'm reading is Stormlight Archives by Brandon Sanderson who has a very solid track record of delivering on his promises. This doesn't justify the vitriol these two authors receive at times. But it is certainly valid to be disappointed in them. It has also lowered by opinion about their writing, as in both cases it has made it clear that they wrote themselves into a corner, and that some of the most intriguing parts of the early books probably have no substance at all and were mere illusions.
b112 5y ago
you have every right to feel cheated that someone told you half a story and then never finished it. Yet this isn't what happened. He was working on it, and people were complaining that he was doing other things. EG "You, like, totally went to the movies, and the next book isn't done??!" kind of posts and emails to him. His creative process is his, and his alone. Doing "other stuff", does not mean his mind isn't thinking of what to write, or where to go with the plot. Thus, in as at that point he never said "no new book", all upset emails were literally nagging him, and complaining that he should do nothing but write. Really, the very essence of a micro manager, solely looking a lines of code as proof of work done, yet Martin isn't even in their employ!
simonh 5y ago
>I agree with the sentiment... but it's still a shitty thing to do Well no, clearly you don't agree with the sentiment. Maybe you wish you did. There can be many reasons why an author never completes a work. Creative writing isn't something you can just turn on like a tap. I'm sure George could just sit and write a few hundred thousand words, get an editor to knock it into shape, slap it on shelves and call the job done, but that's not how he works. The material he writs is extremely complex, with many characters and different locations, has many influences that he draw on and needs to keep in his head, and with each new book it gets more and more complex. Also, he's not getting any younger. As a writer ages, it gets harder and harder to maintain the same level of output, at the same quality. He seems very keen and motivated to finish the work. Let's hope.
B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago
Happens occasionally, I imagine the writer is not too pleased with not finishing the job either. In SF earlier we had Harlan Ellison's postponed-to-irrelevancy third volume of Dangerous Visions anthologies, and David Gerrold's meandered-into-a-corner War Against the Chtorr.
mysterydip 5y ago
Do you think posthumously we'll get another "here's the finished story based off of notes and manuscripts the publisher found in the author's study"?
- protomyth 5y ago
  Yep. I would imagine it's way too tempting for the heirs. Heck, look at Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan series. I was recently in a bookstore and saw they had a lot of new books. I assume if the author doesn't finish a work someone will cough up the money to finish it for a nice profit.
viraptor 5y ago
Some upcoming end of the story may be implied, but not seeing it doesn't make the author a bullshitter. What if the author doesn't have a good enough idea for the ending yet? Would you be satisfied with "And then a meteorite crushed everyone, the end." just because you want to see some result? The expectation that you can get a new book is basically "if I tied the author to the desk they'd write it"... but would they be able to? How do you know?
- imgabe 5y ago
  Claiming that you're going to do something you don't have any idea how to do is classic bullshitting.
  - viraptor 5y ago
    It may be an honest "I'm going to keep trying to do X" rather than "X will be done, I have it all set up". I believe it's extremely rare for an author to have the whole series planned and ready to go the moment they sell the first book (i.e. when you get that implicit promise)
  - burnished 5y ago
    C'mon, this isn't a hard topic, can you have just a little more nuance and empathy on this one? We're all making it up as we go along anyway.
ponow 5y ago
> Like if a friend offered to help you move and then never showed up. No, it's not at all like that. That friend told you they would show up at a particular time. By contrast, when your read a book, then you've read it. Deal done. What goes on in the media is another matter, totally NOT analogous to a personal commitment directly from one person to another.
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
the thing is you paid for the first few books in the series with (probably) money and (definitely) time on the expectation that they were going to follow through with an ending, so it is sort of like they got really rich of the money their books earned them but they did not follow through on the implicit contract of a 'series' of books.
openfuture 5y ago
Ugh. I don't even know where to begin... so, I like reading, a lot. and I think this is a really stupid comment. I read constantly all sorts of things and 99% of the time they are partial things; some academic paper, some weekly fantasy series that go on forever, books, websites, whatever! There is not particular harm done if someone can't finish a story by themselves, I have read so many stories (and all of tvtropes) that in my internal world all these different stories come together. You read one story like song of ice and fire and then another one like the first blade and then another one and another one and another one and eventually you see how they play out and what can happen and you learn to enjoy the glimpses rather than getting all huffed up that the author didn't put enough into it. Seriously awful to be in a society that is so entitled that you can get top comment on the heading "Entitlement issues" with such an entitled comment.
- imgabe 5y ago
  Here's the thing, you can feel disappointed that something didn't happen, even if there was no particular obligation for it to happen. You're allowed to feel that way. It doesn't mean you think it was owed to you or that you were entitled to it. If you were looking forward to something, and then it doesn't happen, then you're going to feel bummed and let down. And if a specific person told you repeatedly that they were going to make it happen and then they don't, yeah, you're going to feel like that person let you down. I get it, it feels bad to let people down. George R.R. Martin probably doesn't want to feel bad. But telling people they aren't allowed to feel disappointed because you never technically had a legally binding contract that obligated you to provide the thing they expected is a little ridiculous.
  - openfuture 5y ago
    Bah, why is it my problem that you feel bad? The thing is; if someone lies to you repeatedly, then why do you trust them? If you liked the story that got told up to the point it got told then you are the benificiary in the situation. If you got bummed out because it couldn't sustain your orgasm then well boohoo, go take some MDMA or whatever it is you do to keep a 24/7 hardon. The rest of us will enjoy the ups _and downs_ of life.
phkahler 5y ago
>> I think that as an audience you have every right to feel cheated that someone told you half a story and then never finished it. If it's a cliff hanger I agree, but a complete story that's part of an incomplete series not so much.
dsign 5y ago
Writing is incredibly difficult and pays incredibly bad. Inspired books are often written for the pleasure of it, and any money from it is a big optional unknown. The author may want to finish the series, but they still need to pay their bills, and if their writing doesn't do it, it's back to trimming lawns and taking odd jobs. There is a simple thing people can do to help writers: read more.
- shadowfox 5y ago
  I mean, while this is sort of true in general, I don't know if the poverty/bad-pay argument would apply to authors like Martin or Rothfuss. Writing is of course hard as you say though.
slibhb 5y ago
Writing is hard. A writer might simply fail. Calling writers "bullshitters" for not publishing is way over the line.
tqi 5y ago
If an author called people who bought the first book of a series but didn't buy later ones bullshitters, they would be mocked for being an entitled idiot.

by imgabe 5y ago

major505 5y ago

Specially since the fact that George R. Martin can now enjoy his life, and not work is thanks to this same audience. Those who treat their audience like shit, is due to lost everything.

Veen 5y ago
His readers (not audience) paid to buy the books he had written. They didn't pay him to write books in the future. I really don't understand this bizarre "fandom" idea that a writer owes his readers something beyond what they have paid for. It's a polite fiction that some writers unfortunately indulge, but the fact that you've paid a small amount of money to read a book doesn't impose any future obligation on its author. His publishers might have cause to be annoyed if they have a contract for more books, but the readers, however disappointed, don't have a moral right to dictate a writer's future labour. And that's what writing novels is—it's work for money, like programming or plumbing, not some mystical calling or vocation.
- hoseja 5y ago
  They bought the books with the illusion they might someday read the ending. A lot of them wouldn't have bought the books if they knew there will never be a conclusion.
  - lupire 5y ago
    GOT TV ended at S8 and the only happy viewers are the ones who stopped after S6.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  No, his readers paid and followed him to hear a story. Of course he doesn't literally, in a legal sense, owe anything to them. And of course they are not entitled to harass him in any way. But they are entitled to feel cheated, and loudly proclaim that they were cheated. Especially with a story as full of intrigue as A Song of Ice and Fire. By comparison, fans of Agatha Christie's work would not have any entitlement to complain if she stopped after three novels, as those novels were complete works in and of themselves. But they would have every reason to complain if she published the first half of And Then There Were None, but never published the ending.
  - thfuran 5y ago
    >By comparison, fans of Agatha Christie's work would not have any entitlement to complain if she stopped after three novels Of course they would.
    - tsimionescu 5y ago
      Why? Do you feel that The Murder of Roger Ackroyd is not telling a complete story unless you also read Murder on the Orient Express? Note that I'm not saying some fans wouldn't have been pressuring her into writing more if she had stopped. I'm saying those fans, unlike the ASOIAF fandom, wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
      - lupire 5y ago
        "complete story" doesn't exist. Every story has details not followed up on. Just like real life. LOST had an ending but it was terrible because the story kept piling on more bullshit. GOT TV had an ending and it was terrible. ASOIAF is a short chronicle (yet still full of many great characterizations, episodes, and plot lines) of characters coming and going through the world. Some plot lines start in the middle, some end in the middle, because neither us nor GRRM are immortal beings.
      - thfuran 5y ago
        >Do you feel that The Murder of Roger Ackroyd is not telling a complete story unless you also read Murder on the Orient Express? That's completely irrelevant. Everyone is entitled to feel however they feel and think whatever they think and should not be precluded from voicing their opinions. Why should your opinion of the relative completeness of one story versus another determine whether someone else is permitted to express disappointment with a story?
- long_time_gone 5y ago
  > They didn't pay him to write books in the future. I really don't understand this bizarre "fandom" idea that a writer owes his readers something beyond what they have paid for. Do this day, 12 years after this was written, he blogs about how the books are his top priority. He is certainly giving his readers the idea that he owes them a finish by constantly communicating that he will finish.
- major505 5y ago
  I paid with the expectation that he would finish the story. Since he didn't I wont buy more of his books until he stop procrastinanting other porjects and release the full story.
- major505 5y ago
  Look, I understand. If I had made so much money like he had, I would be now snoring cocaine over strippers instead of writing. But I had the expecation that in his age, he would be more responsable then me.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  > They didn't pay him to write books in the future. No, but HBO did, he (co?)wrote Fire and Blood to give them material for a new GoT style TV show; they probably paid him so much to cram its writing in between the mainline ASoIaF books. On top of the licenses for the once popular TV show.
- the_af 5y ago
  > And that's what writing novels is—it's work for money, like programming or plumbing, not some mystical calling or vocation. I agree with your overall comment, but this is not entirely true. For many writers, writing is a vocation. They would do it even if they couldn't make a living out of it, just like a painter would paint even if nobody commissioned any of their work. It just happens that for a relatively small percentage of writers, writing is a viable way to make enough money to make a living.

rob74 5y ago

Ok, in the case of a series of novels the promise to eventually finish the story is not explicit, as in someone promising to help you move, but other than that, I agree with the point you are making. For Stephen King, it took 22 years and a wake up call in the form of an accident that nearly killed him to get him to finish his "magnum opus", the Dark Tower cycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Tower_(series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Tower_(series)). So I haven't completely given up hope about ASOIAF yet, but I'm not holding my breath either...

imgabe 5y ago
I mean, it's kind of implicit when someone starts telling a story that the story is going to come to some kind of conclusion at some point since that's how stories work. It's not something that usually needs to be stated. I take your point though, but I think they've also explicitly stated that they intend to finish it at some point.
- mcphage 5y ago
  > when someone starts telling a story that the story is going to come to some kind of conclusion at some point since that's how stories work Yes, but you bought the start of the stories. You didn't buy the conclusion. There's no cheating involved.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    The start is only valuable if there is an end, especially for a novel built on mystery and intrigue. When George RR Martin will, sadly, die without having finished A Song of Ice and Fire, all its parts will be forgotten by history (except, perhaps, A Game of Thrones), as they only work as scaffolding for a future ending (save a few extraordinary moments here and there, like the Red Wedding). But if by some miracle he finishes them (and it would be a miracle by this point, given he has spent more than a decade writing the next book, with no end in sight), and if the finale holds up to the quality of the mysteries he has built up, then it may be remembered right next to Lord of the Rings as one of fantasy writing's greatest masterpieces.

marvin 5y ago

To be fair, both A Song of Ice and Fire and The Kingkiller Chronicles is magnificently inspired and novel writing, more so than most that of some very consistent and prolific authors. I could certainly empathize with them running out of inspiration after some years. I'd rather read the first Kingkiller books for the first time than all of Expeditionary Force, for instance. I'd rather live in a world where Martin and Rothfuss never finished their masterpieces than a world where the unfinished works never even existed. I haven't had many literary experiences that so vividly stimulated my imagination as these. Maybe they could both hire Brandon Sanderson to finish their works someday. He's both incredibly prolific and for the most part very creative and novel. I guess that's why he was hired to finish Robert Jordan's series. It was certainly a good fit, all things considered. In fact -- has any fan fiction been published that attempts to continue these works? I could imagine that as a genre, but of course it would be a Herculean effort that would unlikely be successful unless attempted by an author that's already world-class.

tsimionescu 5y ago
I don't know The Kingiller Chronicles so I'm not going to comment on that, but I don't think you can call A Song of Ice and Fire a masterpiece until you see it's ending. A lot of the quality is in the intricate plots it implies, but it has yet to resolve the vast majority of them, and if it falls flat, a lot of the majesty of what was started will turn put to have been smoke and mirrors. This is what the Game of Thrones TV show proved: overall the show should not be considered a masterpiece, even though the early seasons seemed good at the time, since the stories they were telling mostly led nowhere. Sure, it had its excellent moments, but that's about it - overall, it was a show about the good guys winning easily, women being irrational and just kinda forgetting, armies fighting without consequences, and so on. The fact that the early seasons made you think it would be a different story was proven an illusion by the end.
- iamsaitam 5y ago
  This is the issue in today's market driven society, there's a big crowd which seems very open to forgetting the pleasures brought up during the development process, when the end comes and is not to their liking. They would all be much more content if they weren't so keen in erasing their own memory.

mkdirp 5y ago

While you're right, you can feel cheated, it shouldn't mean that you need to nag someone about it. I've not read the books (though saying I was disappointed with the ending of the TV adaptation, is a massive understatement), but I've had other examples. All that should do is lose trust in that person, and potentially avoid their uncompleted other work, because the same thing might happen. Taking your example, if my friend doesn't show up, assuming I don't buy his excuse, it means a) I lose trust in him when it comes to something that matter, and b) I'm less likely to ask him to help me move next time.

imgabe 5y ago
You're right, nobody should be harassing the authors. That doesn't mean they can't voice their disappointment, even publicly, even in places where the authors might read it and feel bad and cause other authors to write defensive posts about not being anyone's bitch. While the people harassing the authors are a bigger pain in the ass, those people at least still care. The bigger problem will be all the fans who silently drift away. The ones who, when a friend asks them about the series, will tell them "yeah, don't bother with that, it's never going to be finished".
- mcphage 5y ago
  > That doesn't mean they can't voice their disappointment, even publicly, even in places where the authors might read it and feel bad and cause other authors to write defensive posts This was "writing to another author attempting to egg him on to also voice his disappointment". Neil Gaiman didn't just stumble across someone's voiced disappointment, it was specifically directed to him. They just didn't get the response they were hoping for.

trabant00 5y ago

A Song of Ice was that twisted the plots in a way that made you wonder just how on earth will it all end. That is a big part of the appeal to the books. The catch is the plots don't go anywhere and there was never a plan for them to do so. So it doesn't just "feels like being cheated". It really is cheating. Over promising and hyping and never delivering.

fabian2k 5y ago

Rothfuss is a special case as he, or at least his publisher claimed that the next two books were already written and only needed to be edited. That was one of the reasons I bought the first book early before any later books were released. Starting an unfinished series is always a gamble, I generally don't mind it but I'm also okay with not always getting a satisfying conclusion, or any conclusion at all. But I don't appreciate being lied to about the state of the later books like this. For larger series with more than 2-3 planned books I would generally be wary now, and the only one of that kind I'm reading is Stormlight Archives by Brandon Sanderson who has a very solid track record of delivering on his promises. This doesn't justify the vitriol these two authors receive at times. But it is certainly valid to be disappointed in them. It has also lowered by opinion about their writing, as in both cases it has made it clear that they wrote themselves into a corner, and that some of the most intriguing parts of the early books probably have no substance at all and were mere illusions.

b112 5y ago

you have every right to feel cheated that someone told you half a story and then never finished it. Yet this isn't what happened. He was working on it, and people were complaining that he was doing other things. EG "You, like, totally went to the movies, and the next book isn't done??!" kind of posts and emails to him. His creative process is his, and his alone. Doing "other stuff", does not mean his mind isn't thinking of what to write, or where to go with the plot. Thus, in as at that point he never said "no new book", all upset emails were literally nagging him, and complaining that he should do nothing but write. Really, the very essence of a micro manager, solely looking a lines of code as proof of work done, yet Martin isn't even in their employ!

simonh 5y ago

>I agree with the sentiment... but it's still a shitty thing to do Well no, clearly you don't agree with the sentiment. Maybe you wish you did. There can be many reasons why an author never completes a work. Creative writing isn't something you can just turn on like a tap. I'm sure George could just sit and write a few hundred thousand words, get an editor to knock it into shape, slap it on shelves and call the job done, but that's not how he works. The material he writs is extremely complex, with many characters and different locations, has many influences that he draw on and needs to keep in his head, and with each new book it gets more and more complex. Also, he's not getting any younger. As a writer ages, it gets harder and harder to maintain the same level of output, at the same quality. He seems very keen and motivated to finish the work. Let's hope.

B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago

Happens occasionally, I imagine the writer is not too pleased with not finishing the job either. In SF earlier we had Harlan Ellison's postponed-to-irrelevancy third volume of Dangerous Visions anthologies, and David Gerrold's meandered-into-a-corner War Against the Chtorr.

mysterydip 5y ago

Do you think posthumously we'll get another "here's the finished story based off of notes and manuscripts the publisher found in the author's study"?

protomyth 5y ago
Yep. I would imagine it's way too tempting for the heirs. Heck, look at Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan series. I was recently in a bookstore and saw they had a lot of new books. I assume if the author doesn't finish a work someone will cough up the money to finish it for a nice profit.

viraptor 5y ago

Some upcoming end of the story may be implied, but not seeing it doesn't make the author a bullshitter. What if the author doesn't have a good enough idea for the ending yet? Would you be satisfied with "And then a meteorite crushed everyone, the end." just because you want to see some result? The expectation that you can get a new book is basically "if I tied the author to the desk they'd write it"... but would they be able to? How do you know?

imgabe 5y ago
Claiming that you're going to do something you don't have any idea how to do is classic bullshitting.
- viraptor 5y ago
  It may be an honest "I'm going to keep trying to do X" rather than "X will be done, I have it all set up". I believe it's extremely rare for an author to have the whole series planned and ready to go the moment they sell the first book (i.e. when you get that implicit promise)
- burnished 5y ago
  C'mon, this isn't a hard topic, can you have just a little more nuance and empathy on this one? We're all making it up as we go along anyway.

ponow 5y ago

> Like if a friend offered to help you move and then never showed up. No, it's not at all like that. That friend told you they would show up at a particular time. By contrast, when your read a book, then you've read it. Deal done. What goes on in the media is another matter, totally NOT analogous to a personal commitment directly from one person to another.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

the thing is you paid for the first few books in the series with (probably) money and (definitely) time on the expectation that they were going to follow through with an ending, so it is sort of like they got really rich of the money their books earned them but they did not follow through on the implicit contract of a 'series' of books.

openfuture 5y ago

Ugh. I don't even know where to begin... so, I like reading, a lot. and I think this is a really stupid comment. I read constantly all sorts of things and 99% of the time they are partial things; some academic paper, some weekly fantasy series that go on forever, books, websites, whatever! There is not particular harm done if someone can't finish a story by themselves, I have read so many stories (and all of tvtropes) that in my internal world all these different stories come together. You read one story like song of ice and fire and then another one like the first blade and then another one and another one and another one and eventually you see how they play out and what can happen and you learn to enjoy the glimpses rather than getting all huffed up that the author didn't put enough into it. Seriously awful to be in a society that is so entitled that you can get top comment on the heading "Entitlement issues" with such an entitled comment.

imgabe 5y ago
Here's the thing, you can feel disappointed that something didn't happen, even if there was no particular obligation for it to happen. You're allowed to feel that way. It doesn't mean you think it was owed to you or that you were entitled to it. If you were looking forward to something, and then it doesn't happen, then you're going to feel bummed and let down. And if a specific person told you repeatedly that they were going to make it happen and then they don't, yeah, you're going to feel like that person let you down. I get it, it feels bad to let people down. George R.R. Martin probably doesn't want to feel bad. But telling people they aren't allowed to feel disappointed because you never technically had a legally binding contract that obligated you to provide the thing they expected is a little ridiculous.
- openfuture 5y ago
  Bah, why is it my problem that you feel bad? The thing is; if someone lies to you repeatedly, then why do you trust them? If you liked the story that got told up to the point it got told then you are the benificiary in the situation. If you got bummed out because it couldn't sustain your orgasm then well boohoo, go take some MDMA or whatever it is you do to keep a 24/7 hardon. The rest of us will enjoy the ups _and downs_ of life.

phkahler 5y ago

>> I think that as an audience you have every right to feel cheated that someone told you half a story and then never finished it. If it's a cliff hanger I agree, but a complete story that's part of an incomplete series not so much.

dsign 5y ago

Writing is incredibly difficult and pays incredibly bad. Inspired books are often written for the pleasure of it, and any money from it is a big optional unknown. The author may want to finish the series, but they still need to pay their bills, and if their writing doesn't do it, it's back to trimming lawns and taking odd jobs. There is a simple thing people can do to help writers: read more.

shadowfox 5y ago
I mean, while this is sort of true in general, I don't know if the poverty/bad-pay argument would apply to authors like Martin or Rothfuss. Writing is of course hard as you say though.

slibhb 5y ago

Writing is hard. A writer might simply fail. Calling writers "bullshitters" for not publishing is way over the line.

tqi 5y ago

If an author called people who bought the first book of a series but didn't buy later ones bullshitters, they would be mocked for being an entitled idiot.