3 ms·

> Conservatives are banning books and outlawing kinds of self-expression, kinds of self-identity, in many countries, RIGHT NOW. I agree, conservatives and libe

by _ktx2 5y ago

> Conservatives are banning books and outlawing kinds of self-expression, kinds of self-identity, in many countries, RIGHT NOW. I agree, conservatives and liberals using morality as an excuse to cause harm are problematic. > What opinions, in 2004, or 2022, does Paul Graham not think one can express safely If I had to guess he's probably thinking on the war and what he's allowed to and what he's not allowed to say. The USG certainly wasn't telling him no; it was individuals and their morals who created an environment of fear and walking on eggshells. I'm not sure how that differs from what we experience today. That said, I think what PG is talking about is the long-term frailty of morals. They change constantly, because they're largely based on hegemonic personal perceptions. To me, the overarching argument is to let morality take a backseat and let people question the world for themselves.

pfkurtz 5y ago
Liberals haven't done anything of the sort, and no one "is using morality as an excuse to cause harm". Morality is about the harms that exist in this world. Conservatives have false beliefs—about trans people, homosexuality, etc—leading them to do things that are good, but are actually evil. No liberals are using state power in anything like the same way, and disagreeing with people is as old as people. If he can't take a public stand on an issue of the day, because some people will disagree with him—why should we listen to him on any issue? What's he self-censoring? Something important? Millions protested the invasion of Iraq; why didn't they self-censor? And if he were standing with me in 2004, talking about WMDs and how right Bush and company were to have plotted this—he would face my moral disagreement. Morals are not "long-term frail". Just the morals of rich men like Paul Graham. Right and wrong exist. There's a battle in the public space right now because some of the things happened are wrong. You either get good and evil, or you don't.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- _ktx2 5y ago
  In my experience, it's not fruitful to argue with folks like you. You're just going to believe what you believe, as if politics and current events are football or religion. Best of luck.
  - pfkurtz 5y ago
    PG proved right! But honestly, I stated my "priors" unequivocally, with specific examples of current legislation that's coming from only one side, and you went "both sides", didn't answer a specific thing, and left in a huff? What conclusion do you actually think I'm drawing about this interaction. You posted on my comment.
    - _ktx2 5y ago
      You didn't mention any current legislation specifically, just that there's legislation on-going. > you went "both sides" I don't know why people like you act like this is a bad thing. The left isn't good, or really great. In fact, it kind of sucks, just a little less than the right. White-bashing has become common place and acceptable in left-leaning circles, misandry has taken off like never before, when I was living in San Diego I watched self-proclaimed leftists in Ocean Beach dressed in all black, helmets, and baseball gear beat the shit out of people with bikes, knives, and CS gas. A prominent antisemite has been allowed to not only stay in office but also continue in committees and receives praise to this day. On the other hand, you're right that the right has allowed bad behavior to make it into the actual representational ranks with those like MTG (there are more, just an example). From my perspective, that doesn't make the left any much better than the right, other than that they have some material functions within the DNC that allow them to keep those kinds of people (who are still constituents) away. I do think the RNC needs to implement these functions, and I understand why they didn't, but the US never would've gotten a world with Donald Trump had the right implemented super delegates the way the left does. Maybe instead of acting like the left is a rosy and immaculate institution you should examine the fractures in the facade that people try to cover up with warm rhetoric.
      - pfkurtz 5y ago

by _ktx2 5y ago

pfkurtz 5y ago

Liberals haven't done anything of the sort, and no one "is using morality as an excuse to cause harm". Morality is about the harms that exist in this world. Conservatives have false beliefs—about trans people, homosexuality, etc—leading them to do things that are good, but are actually evil. No liberals are using state power in anything like the same way, and disagreeing with people is as old as people. If he can't take a public stand on an issue of the day, because some people will disagree with him—why should we listen to him on any issue? What's he self-censoring? Something important? Millions protested the invasion of Iraq; why didn't they self-censor? And if he were standing with me in 2004, talking about WMDs and how right Bush and company were to have plotted this—he would face my moral disagreement. Morals are not "long-term frail". Just the morals of rich men like Paul Graham. Right and wrong exist. There's a battle in the public space right now because some of the things happened are wrong. You either get good and evil, or you don't.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
_ktx2 5y ago
In my experience, it's not fruitful to argue with folks like you. You're just going to believe what you believe, as if politics and current events are football or religion. Best of luck.
- pfkurtz 5y ago
  PG proved right! But honestly, I stated my "priors" unequivocally, with specific examples of current legislation that's coming from only one side, and you went "both sides", didn't answer a specific thing, and left in a huff? What conclusion do you actually think I'm drawing about this interaction. You posted on my comment.
  - _ktx2 5y ago
    You didn't mention any current legislation specifically, just that there's legislation on-going. > you went "both sides" I don't know why people like you act like this is a bad thing. The left isn't good, or really great. In fact, it kind of sucks, just a little less than the right. White-bashing has become common place and acceptable in left-leaning circles, misandry has taken off like never before, when I was living in San Diego I watched self-proclaimed leftists in Ocean Beach dressed in all black, helmets, and baseball gear beat the shit out of people with bikes, knives, and CS gas. A prominent antisemite has been allowed to not only stay in office but also continue in committees and receives praise to this day. On the other hand, you're right that the right has allowed bad behavior to make it into the actual representational ranks with those like MTG (there are more, just an example). From my perspective, that doesn't make the left any much better than the right, other than that they have some material functions within the DNC that allow them to keep those kinds of people (who are still constituents) away. I do think the RNC needs to implement these functions, and I understand why they didn't, but the US never would've gotten a world with Donald Trump had the right implemented super delegates the way the left does. Maybe instead of acting like the left is a rosy and immaculate institution you should examine the fractures in the facade that people try to cover up with warm rhetoric.
    - pfkurtz 5y ago