6 ms·

It's rough. On the one hand, retirees bring nothing of real value to the economy. We serve them because of the obligations they built up over their working car

It's rough. On the one hand, retirees bring nothing of real value to the economy. We serve them because of the obligations they built up over their working careers. But, they get the focus of attention because a) they have all the money, b) they have all the time to be engaged in politics, and c) they vote. But they're purely an extractive cost center. A kind of economic parasite that keeps getting bigger and bigger with the magic of compounding interest. On the other hand, the younger working class generations, who are the real engines of the economy that keep us all fed and served, are legitimately suffering and failing to acquire a significant stake in the economy. Sure, employment is high but pay is low compared to their parents. When shit hits the fan, the young generations are largely gonna shrug, because who fights to defend something they don't have a stake in? It really seems like a powder keg for revolution.

mrmuagi 5y ago
> retirees bring nothing of real value to the economy. Sure they may not be producing anything, but is there any value to the idea they consumers still? A lot of FIRE philosophy is you work hard so you can earn retirement early too -- people aren't going to work all their lives either, there has to be a light at the end of the tunnel. It is saddening that it may not be the case for many.
- duncan-donuts 5y ago
  Apparently retirees aren't allowed to hold investments
dc-programmer 5y ago
Probably not. Estate taxes are low
- mikeyouse 5y ago
  Estate taxes don't exist for 99.7% of people. A married couple can exempt the first $24M of their estate from any Federal taxes. https://www.kiplinger.com/taxes/601639/estate-tax-exemption-2022 https://www.kiplinger.com/taxes/601639/estate-tax-exemption-... Mind you, this also avoids a ton of tax that would otherwise be due had they not died via the step-up in basis... it's a massive giveaway to the rich. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/stepupinbasis.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/stepupinbasis.asp
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Estate taxes don't exist for 99.9% of people. Which supports the claim that they are low, and, consequently that young people (who often stand to inherit from their elderly relatives) have a stake in the investments of old people not getting wiped out.
    - mikeyouse 5y ago
      Of course young people have a stake in their rich parents not getting wiped out - but it has nothing to do with the estate tax.
jcranberry 5y ago
You think retirees are keeping all their savings in cash in their mattresses or something?
- 0xB31B1B 5y ago
  The point is, the things that make the economy work and grow is the production of things. Regardless of how many investments a retired person has, they by definition do not produce things.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    You need to have consumers to make production worth something. Retirees are consumers. It's basically all they do.
    - stickfigure 5y ago
      This is a variant of the broken windows fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window
  - jcranberry 5y ago
    You need investment to produce things and consumers to buy produced things.
mc32 5y ago
Retirees are everyone, except older. What would “you”[1]want from the fed once a retiree? [1] other working people once they too retire.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Far fewer young people have any possibility of retiring. You can't build retirement from gig labor and shitty service jobs.
tomc1985 5y ago
Jesus Christ, work til you die eh? For a lot of people, what is even the point of living if there's no retirement to enjoy? They are an extractive class insofar as their present contributions are net negative. But you are forgetting they likely spent their entire life building up that account, both in terms of an actual retirement and the broader accounting of total life's contributions. Indeed, it is something that hopefully you and I will enjoy one day, because we've earned it. That idea reeks of short-term thinking, and a world of endless work for no reward as your worth goes to 0 once you stop contributing.
- anonporridge 5y ago
  > Jesus Christ, work til you die eh? That is the normal human experience. But also not what I'm suggesting.
  - tomc1985 5y ago
    Among the poverty-striken, sure. But nearly every society has some form of elder care.
    - anonporridge 5y ago
      True, but almost every society expects its elders to still do some kind of work, usually house work and child care, which helps free the healthy adults to do the more difficult work. Those who can't do that are usually very close to death.
      - tomc1985 5y ago
        So then what is the complaint? They are indeed contributing to society. We enjoy the level of technological advancement that we do because our innovators are free to innovate, and not wasting their time on prosaic matters (because the elders cover that for them)
- tonguez 5y ago
  "For a lot of people, what is even the point of living if there's no retirement to enjoy?" The point is you are supposed to be helping other people in some way. Not just being a useless turd and forcing young functional people pay rent to you so that you can do nothing but sit on your fat ass and shit in your diaper. They also lived in a society that was much more prosperous than any young person ever will. Considering that now everything is ruined, it's hard not to look at them and imagine they share some small part of the blame. Maybe if people cared less about saving up a big sum for themselves to "enjoy their retirement", aka being a self-centered moron, then the world wouldn't be such a shithole today.
duncan-donuts 5y ago
You're talking about living breathing humans. "extractive cost center" is a weird way to describe "person who paid social security their entire working life". You're not wrong about what you're saying but fuck can you act like there's real people involved here and not just numbers? Are retirees _really_ economic parasites? Let's not forget that consumption is bringing in revenue to _someone_ which does provide value to the economy. Unbelievable
- anonporridge 5y ago
  If you want to work on and solve big hairy problems, you can't get caught up in the weeds. We can acknowledge the humanity of the humans who make up the constituent parts of the colossus while also saying that the colossus, the sum of those humans, is a potentially negative force on the stability and sustainability of the system. And I speak as one of these retirees.
- loufe 5y ago
  Sure it's not the most humanizing but it is valuable to disassociate oneself from our human side in order to analyze inhuman systems. The perspective isn't without value, and GP wasn't implying it wasn't, but to take the time to elaborate the point going through the motions to emotional pad it would have been time wasted for most of us. It's something I appreciate about this community, that we can express ourselves in such ways in order to convey a point without any fat on it. I still assume the person making the point understands that there the fat is there without needing to explicitly mention it. It's a sign of mature dialogue IMO.
tw600040 5y ago
//On the one hand, retirees bring nothing of real value to the economy Not true. If retirees have money, that's money they got paid for doing actual contribution. If you devalue that money that's devaluing their life's work and contributions. Not an advocate for crypto etc, but it feels wrong that a bunch of folks like Powell etc get to decide the fate of whole generation's peaceful retirement.
- boppo1 5y ago
  >feels wrong Because it is. Why did we start interest rate interventions again?
bogomipz 5y ago
This is an incredibly bigoted screed. Describing human beings who were the economic engine for 40-50 years and paid in to the system as a "parasite" and a "purely an extractive cost center" is truly appalling. >"It really seems like a powder keg for revolution." I would argue your entire post seems like a powder keg for some self-reflection.
MisterMower 5y ago
I hope you never grow old or become wealthy, friend. It’d be quite the shame for you to become the very thing that you hate. You’re living in housing built by someone in the past, driving a car engineered years ago, on bridges and roads built decades ago. You enjoy technologies that people even 30 years ago could only dream of, things you did not create or contribute to. And then you have the gall to whine about those builders, savers, investors, and innovators who created those things. Kind of sounds like you’re the extractive cost center, to be honest.

mrmuagi 5y ago

> retirees bring nothing of real value to the economy. Sure they may not be producing anything, but is there any value to the idea they consumers still? A lot of FIRE philosophy is you work hard so you can earn retirement early too -- people aren't going to work all their lives either, there has to be a light at the end of the tunnel. It is saddening that it may not be the case for many.

duncan-donuts 5y ago
Apparently retirees aren't allowed to hold investments

dc-programmer 5y ago

Probably not. Estate taxes are low

mikeyouse 5y ago
Estate taxes don't exist for 99.7% of people. A married couple can exempt the first $24M of their estate from any Federal taxes. https://www.kiplinger.com/taxes/601639/estate-tax-exemption-2022 https://www.kiplinger.com/taxes/601639/estate-tax-exemption-... Mind you, this also avoids a ton of tax that would otherwise be due had they not died via the step-up in basis... it's a massive giveaway to the rich. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/stepupinbasis.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/stepupinbasis.asp
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Estate taxes don't exist for 99.9% of people. Which supports the claim that they are low, and, consequently that young people (who often stand to inherit from their elderly relatives) have a stake in the investments of old people not getting wiped out.
  - mikeyouse 5y ago
    Of course young people have a stake in their rich parents not getting wiped out - but it has nothing to do with the estate tax.

jcranberry 5y ago

You think retirees are keeping all their savings in cash in their mattresses or something?

0xB31B1B 5y ago
The point is, the things that make the economy work and grow is the production of things. Regardless of how many investments a retired person has, they by definition do not produce things.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  You need to have consumers to make production worth something. Retirees are consumers. It's basically all they do.
  - stickfigure 5y ago
    This is a variant of the broken windows fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window
- jcranberry 5y ago
  You need investment to produce things and consumers to buy produced things.

mc32 5y ago

Retirees are everyone, except older. What would “you”[1]want from the fed once a retiree? [1] other working people once they too retire.

pessimizer 5y ago
Far fewer young people have any possibility of retiring. You can't build retirement from gig labor and shitty service jobs.

tomc1985 5y ago

Jesus Christ, work til you die eh? For a lot of people, what is even the point of living if there's no retirement to enjoy? They are an extractive class insofar as their present contributions are net negative. But you are forgetting they likely spent their entire life building up that account, both in terms of an actual retirement and the broader accounting of total life's contributions. Indeed, it is something that hopefully you and I will enjoy one day, because we've earned it. That idea reeks of short-term thinking, and a world of endless work for no reward as your worth goes to 0 once you stop contributing.

anonporridge 5y ago
> Jesus Christ, work til you die eh? That is the normal human experience. But also not what I'm suggesting.
- tomc1985 5y ago
  Among the poverty-striken, sure. But nearly every society has some form of elder care.
  - anonporridge 5y ago
    True, but almost every society expects its elders to still do some kind of work, usually house work and child care, which helps free the healthy adults to do the more difficult work. Those who can't do that are usually very close to death.
    - tomc1985 5y ago
      So then what is the complaint? They are indeed contributing to society. We enjoy the level of technological advancement that we do because our innovators are free to innovate, and not wasting their time on prosaic matters (because the elders cover that for them)
tonguez 5y ago
"For a lot of people, what is even the point of living if there's no retirement to enjoy?" The point is you are supposed to be helping other people in some way. Not just being a useless turd and forcing young functional people pay rent to you so that you can do nothing but sit on your fat ass and shit in your diaper. They also lived in a society that was much more prosperous than any young person ever will. Considering that now everything is ruined, it's hard not to look at them and imagine they share some small part of the blame. Maybe if people cared less about saving up a big sum for themselves to "enjoy their retirement", aka being a self-centered moron, then the world wouldn't be such a shithole today.

duncan-donuts 5y ago

You're talking about living breathing humans. "extractive cost center" is a weird way to describe "person who paid social security their entire working life". You're not wrong about what you're saying but fuck can you act like there's real people involved here and not just numbers? Are retirees _really_ economic parasites? Let's not forget that consumption is bringing in revenue to _someone_ which does provide value to the economy. Unbelievable

anonporridge 5y ago
If you want to work on and solve big hairy problems, you can't get caught up in the weeds. We can acknowledge the humanity of the humans who make up the constituent parts of the colossus while also saying that the colossus, the sum of those humans, is a potentially negative force on the stability and sustainability of the system. And I speak as one of these retirees.
loufe 5y ago
Sure it's not the most humanizing but it is valuable to disassociate oneself from our human side in order to analyze inhuman systems. The perspective isn't without value, and GP wasn't implying it wasn't, but to take the time to elaborate the point going through the motions to emotional pad it would have been time wasted for most of us. It's something I appreciate about this community, that we can express ourselves in such ways in order to convey a point without any fat on it. I still assume the person making the point understands that there the fat is there without needing to explicitly mention it. It's a sign of mature dialogue IMO.

tw600040 5y ago

//On the one hand, retirees bring nothing of real value to the economy Not true. If retirees have money, that's money they got paid for doing actual contribution. If you devalue that money that's devaluing their life's work and contributions. Not an advocate for crypto etc, but it feels wrong that a bunch of folks like Powell etc get to decide the fate of whole generation's peaceful retirement.

boppo1 5y ago
>feels wrong Because it is. Why did we start interest rate interventions again?

bogomipz 5y ago

This is an incredibly bigoted screed. Describing human beings who were the economic engine for 40-50 years and paid in to the system as a "parasite" and a "purely an extractive cost center" is truly appalling. >"It really seems like a powder keg for revolution." I would argue your entire post seems like a powder keg for some self-reflection.

MisterMower 5y ago

I hope you never grow old or become wealthy, friend. It’d be quite the shame for you to become the very thing that you hate. You’re living in housing built by someone in the past, driving a car engineered years ago, on bridges and roads built decades ago. You enjoy technologies that people even 30 years ago could only dream of, things you did not create or contribute to. And then you have the gall to whine about those builders, savers, investors, and innovators who created those things. Kind of sounds like you’re the extractive cost center, to be honest.