8 ms·

Software is worth paying for if it saves you time (and therefore money) and buys you a consistent, reliable experience with a pleasant UX. Building software is

Software is worth paying for if it saves you time (and therefore money) and buys you a consistent, reliable experience with a pleasant UX. Building software is also the thing that pays a lot of our bills. We expect our customers to pay us for our engineering labor. What makes Docker any different?

benbristow 5y ago
The bait-and-switch, providing it for free then suddenly taking it away.
- anamexis 5y ago
  If by "suddenly" you mean "with 5 months notice."
  - rat9988 5y ago
    After many years of service making it hard to remove, and a non negligible cost.
    - KronisLV 5y ago
      > After many years of service making it hard to remove... Would you rather they go under as a company, due to how badly their attempts at monetizing containers have failed in the past and then have Docker Desktop not be maintained at all and have Docker as a whole take a noticeable hit? > ...and a non negligible cost. I'd say that perhaps using either Docker with the CLI, IDE integrations/plugins or using Rancher Desktop (https://rancherdesktop.io/ https://rancherdesktop.io/) are more cost effective alternatives in that case.
    - glenngillen 5y ago
      So the thing that makes this egregious is they let you use it for free for _almost a decade_, while they fumbled finding an alternative monetisation strategy?
      - rat9988 5y ago
        Spin however you want, I am sympathetic toward their situation, it doesn't make it appreciable nonetheless.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    Those 5 months are irrelevant when companies have invested years of development effort in weaving docker into their workflow. It's a bait and switch, simple as that.
    - anamexis 5y ago
      I would argue it's only bait and switch if they implied that it would always be free.
      - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
        Did they say from the beginning "Hey, it's free for now, but brace yourselves, we'll start charging you at some point in the future"?
        anamexis 5y ago
        I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they've been explicit for a quite awhile about Docker Enterprise being their product for organizations. https://web.archive.org/web/20200101044220/https://www.docker.com/products/docker-desktop https://web.archive.org/web/20200101044220/https://www.docke...
        Isthatablackgsd 5y ago
        Did they say from the beginning * "Hey, it's free forever!" * ? If they made it explicit that it is free forever, then I would agree with your stance that Docker in the wrong. But so far I couldn't find a shred of information indicating that Docker commercial/enterprise account will be free forever. So that didn't put Docker in a wrong. And be realistic of this world, you cannot expect software companies to survive on free account alone forever. Who is paying the servers to keep it up? Docker. Who is providing the support? Docker. Who paying the developers to keep Docker products updated and introduce new features? Docker. How could Docker survive without the cash flow with the free account forever. I mean Google, Microsoft, Chococately, Homebrew/Brew, etc have commercial licenses to cover the cost of their products to keep it free for personal-use users. If you don't see this coming, well I don't what to tell you but that is the cost of doing business.
- thr0wawayf00 5y ago
  Did you really, truly think that a product like Docker desktop would stay free forever? This is a fundamental aspect of building software products and companies. I do not understand how in 2022 we still have people hanging out in tech forums like HN that do not understand this. The first objective of a pre-revenue company is to grow as fast as possible and then either get acquired or start generating revenue, which almost always involves marking up their product. And because of the nature of software, it's easy to build POC's and prototypes that half-work today, with the promise of better functionality and integration in the future. But that tomorrow always comes with a cost. Somehow, folks in this industry seem to be convinced that it's OK for them to turn a profit on their value-add software, but not other people. What are software companies supposed to do? Overcharge today for software that doesn't necessarily work right now? What's the model that companies like Docker should use instead?
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >Did you really, truly think that a product like Docker desktop would stay free forever? You're mistaken here. Nobody has issues paying for software, however people have issues with being baited into a free product to then suddenly be charged after companies get locked in, which is a shitty business practice that needs to be discouraged. Had Docker been transparent from the start that at some point in the future it will cost money, then that would have been fair since this would have been factored into business decisions. You can't just hand out free candy and after people swallow it, you tell them they now have to pay up or throw it up, since you can't expect such good candy to be free. That's basically a scam. Again, it's not about the money, it's about transparency.
    - alar44 5y ago
      Hire a team and build your own fucking software then. That's the other option if building a business around someone else's free work isn't perfect enough for you.
      - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
        I didn't build any business one someone's free work. Your comment is out of place.
hedora 5y ago
Docker Desktop doesn't save any time or money vs. things like minikube. The initial setup is slightly easier, but then you're exposed to random modal dialog popups for all time moving forward. If there was some value add, then maybe it would be worth paying for. As it is, it looks like they spun off the part of the company that had any hope of turning a profit (via support contracts), and now they're flailing around in search of a business model. It's a shame. Dockerfiles are nice. I hope they come up with a way of getting people to pay for some (actual) value add.
- jamesfinlayson 5y ago
  Certainly true in my case - I live on the command line but currently being on a Mac, Docker is Docker Desktop. If there was a CLI only version of Docker for Mac that's what I'd be using.
  - ta988 5y ago
    multipass docker if you can live without a firewall
    - jamesfinlayson 5y ago
      In a corporate environment so probably not unfortunately. I know there are better alternatives but it seems like there are a handful of alternatives right now and no clear preferred alternative.
kedean 5y ago
It is and that's great, but changing the license never goes over well, especially for developers in a large company. I would have loved to just pay for DD, but it's really hard to answer the question "this has been free for years, why should we pay for it now?". The bait-and-switch also feels pretty insidious to a lot of developers, please refer to when Oracle did the same thing with their JVM implementation. I've also found that a lot of large enterprises have had big difficulties on hammering out licensing terms with Docker. When it's a product you actively use, that means the devs will either wait for shit to hit the fan or start looking at alternatives, and find that there are still free competitors (Rancher Desktop, Podman, Minikube depending on your use-case). IMO, it would have been a whole lot better if the Desktop product had been paid to begin with, rather than being suddenly switched as a last minute monetization strategy.
halostatue 5y ago
Docker Desktop on macOS is none of the three (consistent, reliable, or pleasant UX). I have -- with some exceptions -- replaced it trivially with Colima for how I use DD (and I am not in the class of people who need to pay for DD, but the forced updates and space-wasting UI were unpleasant).
heavenlyblue 5y ago
You built a company on questionable business model expecting that “somewhere down the line you will be making money” which never happened as it happens most of the time when you kick the can down the road. Now I have to use your software because you used investor money to make that software industry standard (standard, which is in fact pretty low). Yet you still made no money. Who knows, maybe if Docker didn’t exist the vacuum in the solution space would be filled with something better or worse?

benbristow 5y ago

The bait-and-switch, providing it for free then suddenly taking it away.

anamexis 5y ago
If by "suddenly" you mean "with 5 months notice."
- rat9988 5y ago
  After many years of service making it hard to remove, and a non negligible cost.
  - KronisLV 5y ago
    > After many years of service making it hard to remove... Would you rather they go under as a company, due to how badly their attempts at monetizing containers have failed in the past and then have Docker Desktop not be maintained at all and have Docker as a whole take a noticeable hit? > ...and a non negligible cost. I'd say that perhaps using either Docker with the CLI, IDE integrations/plugins or using Rancher Desktop (https://rancherdesktop.io/ https://rancherdesktop.io/) are more cost effective alternatives in that case.
  - glenngillen 5y ago
    So the thing that makes this egregious is they let you use it for free for _almost a decade_, while they fumbled finding an alternative monetisation strategy?
    - rat9988 5y ago
      Spin however you want, I am sympathetic toward their situation, it doesn't make it appreciable nonetheless.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  Those 5 months are irrelevant when companies have invested years of development effort in weaving docker into their workflow. It's a bait and switch, simple as that.
  - anamexis 5y ago
    I would argue it's only bait and switch if they implied that it would always be free.
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      Did they say from the beginning "Hey, it's free for now, but brace yourselves, we'll start charging you at some point in the future"?
      - anamexis 5y ago
        I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they've been explicit for a quite awhile about Docker Enterprise being their product for organizations. https://web.archive.org/web/20200101044220/https://www.docker.com/products/docker-desktop https://web.archive.org/web/20200101044220/https://www.docke...
      - Isthatablackgsd 5y ago
        Did they say from the beginning * "Hey, it's free forever!" * ? If they made it explicit that it is free forever, then I would agree with your stance that Docker in the wrong. But so far I couldn't find a shred of information indicating that Docker commercial/enterprise account will be free forever. So that didn't put Docker in a wrong. And be realistic of this world, you cannot expect software companies to survive on free account alone forever. Who is paying the servers to keep it up? Docker. Who is providing the support? Docker. Who paying the developers to keep Docker products updated and introduce new features? Docker. How could Docker survive without the cash flow with the free account forever. I mean Google, Microsoft, Chococately, Homebrew/Brew, etc have commercial licenses to cover the cost of their products to keep it free for personal-use users. If you don't see this coming, well I don't what to tell you but that is the cost of doing business.
thr0wawayf00 5y ago
Did you really, truly think that a product like Docker desktop would stay free forever? This is a fundamental aspect of building software products and companies. I do not understand how in 2022 we still have people hanging out in tech forums like HN that do not understand this. The first objective of a pre-revenue company is to grow as fast as possible and then either get acquired or start generating revenue, which almost always involves marking up their product. And because of the nature of software, it's easy to build POC's and prototypes that half-work today, with the promise of better functionality and integration in the future. But that tomorrow always comes with a cost. Somehow, folks in this industry seem to be convinced that it's OK for them to turn a profit on their value-add software, but not other people. What are software companies supposed to do? Overcharge today for software that doesn't necessarily work right now? What's the model that companies like Docker should use instead?
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >Did you really, truly think that a product like Docker desktop would stay free forever? You're mistaken here. Nobody has issues paying for software, however people have issues with being baited into a free product to then suddenly be charged after companies get locked in, which is a shitty business practice that needs to be discouraged. Had Docker been transparent from the start that at some point in the future it will cost money, then that would have been fair since this would have been factored into business decisions. You can't just hand out free candy and after people swallow it, you tell them they now have to pay up or throw it up, since you can't expect such good candy to be free. That's basically a scam. Again, it's not about the money, it's about transparency.
  - alar44 5y ago
    Hire a team and build your own fucking software then. That's the other option if building a business around someone else's free work isn't perfect enough for you.
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      I didn't build any business one someone's free work. Your comment is out of place.

hedora 5y ago

Docker Desktop doesn't save any time or money vs. things like minikube. The initial setup is slightly easier, but then you're exposed to random modal dialog popups for all time moving forward. If there was some value add, then maybe it would be worth paying for. As it is, it looks like they spun off the part of the company that had any hope of turning a profit (via support contracts), and now they're flailing around in search of a business model. It's a shame. Dockerfiles are nice. I hope they come up with a way of getting people to pay for some (actual) value add.

jamesfinlayson 5y ago
Certainly true in my case - I live on the command line but currently being on a Mac, Docker is Docker Desktop. If there was a CLI only version of Docker for Mac that's what I'd be using.
- ta988 5y ago
  multipass docker if you can live without a firewall
  - jamesfinlayson 5y ago
    In a corporate environment so probably not unfortunately. I know there are better alternatives but it seems like there are a handful of alternatives right now and no clear preferred alternative.

kedean 5y ago

It is and that's great, but changing the license never goes over well, especially for developers in a large company. I would have loved to just pay for DD, but it's really hard to answer the question "this has been free for years, why should we pay for it now?". The bait-and-switch also feels pretty insidious to a lot of developers, please refer to when Oracle did the same thing with their JVM implementation. I've also found that a lot of large enterprises have had big difficulties on hammering out licensing terms with Docker. When it's a product you actively use, that means the devs will either wait for shit to hit the fan or start looking at alternatives, and find that there are still free competitors (Rancher Desktop, Podman, Minikube depending on your use-case). IMO, it would have been a whole lot better if the Desktop product had been paid to begin with, rather than being suddenly switched as a last minute monetization strategy.

halostatue 5y ago

Docker Desktop on macOS is none of the three (consistent, reliable, or pleasant UX). I have -- with some exceptions -- replaced it trivially with Colima for how I use DD (and I am not in the class of people who need to pay for DD, but the forced updates and space-wasting UI were unpleasant).

heavenlyblue 5y ago

You built a company on questionable business model expecting that “somewhere down the line you will be making money” which never happened as it happens most of the time when you kick the can down the road. Now I have to use your software because you used investor money to make that software industry standard (standard, which is in fact pretty low). Yet you still made no money. Who knows, maybe if Docker didn’t exist the vacuum in the solution space would be filled with something better or worse?