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You can't ignore energy inputs to required processing components. Those servers at Google required energy to build and humans to operate. Maybe that person in t

You can't ignore energy inputs to required processing components. Those servers at Google required energy to build and humans to operate. Maybe that person in the car was driving to Google to fix a server that processes 1 million queries a day. I'd say they value added to get him there was huge. I'll just ask this: Is it possible to create economic value with out using energy? If it's not, then we're just haggling over efficiency.

bko 5y ago
> Is it possible to create economic value with out using energy? Of course. Find a cheaper way to do something. For example, create a motor that is more efficient. It might cost you energy up front, but presumably the reduction in cost would more than make up for the cost (otherwise why would someone do it?)
- TrispusAttucks 5y ago
  Agreed. Unfortunately this leads to the Jevons Paradox [1] where we end right back to increased consumption again. We can't escape. Economy is energy consumption. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
  - bko 5y ago
    I don't know. US energy consumption has stayed relatively flat over the last twenty years (down if you exclude renewables) despite economic and population growth https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/ https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/
    - TrispusAttucks 5y ago
      You can't look at the US alone. The economy is gobal. https://ourfiniteworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/world-total-energy-and-real-gdp.png https://ourfiniteworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/world-...
nostrademons 5y ago
The answer to your question is "no", but it misses the point. Of course it's not possible to create economic value without using energy, because living requires energy, and dead people don't spend money, except on cemetery plots. However, "haggling over efficiency" is the entire economy. Basically all of the interesting questions are about trade-offs needed to produce goods & services more efficiently.
snowwrestler 5y ago
Of course things take energy; this is so obvious, it’s a straw man. The question is how closely economic value correlates with raw energy usage. The answer is: they’ve been diverging for years. A Simpsons SD card does not take any more energy to use than an SD card full of Pauly Shore movies. A Mercedes sedan uses about the same amount of energy as a Honda sedan.

bko 5y ago

> Is it possible to create economic value with out using energy? Of course. Find a cheaper way to do something. For example, create a motor that is more efficient. It might cost you energy up front, but presumably the reduction in cost would more than make up for the cost (otherwise why would someone do it?)

TrispusAttucks 5y ago
Agreed. Unfortunately this leads to the Jevons Paradox [1] where we end right back to increased consumption again. We can't escape. Economy is energy consumption. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox
- bko 5y ago
  I don't know. US energy consumption has stayed relatively flat over the last twenty years (down if you exclude renewables) despite economic and population growth https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/ https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/us-energy-facts/
  - TrispusAttucks 5y ago
    You can't look at the US alone. The economy is gobal. https://ourfiniteworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/world-total-energy-and-real-gdp.png https://ourfiniteworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/world-...

nostrademons 5y ago

The answer to your question is "no", but it misses the point. Of course it's not possible to create economic value without using energy, because living requires energy, and dead people don't spend money, except on cemetery plots. However, "haggling over efficiency" is the entire economy. Basically all of the interesting questions are about trade-offs needed to produce goods & services more efficiently.

snowwrestler 5y ago

Of course things take energy; this is so obvious, it’s a straw man. The question is how closely economic value correlates with raw energy usage. The answer is: they’ve been diverging for years. A Simpsons SD card does not take any more energy to use than an SD card full of Pauly Shore movies. A Mercedes sedan uses about the same amount of energy as a Honda sedan.