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The article glosses over the "exceptions" bit and makes it seem like dropped the definitive article is the rule for the names of nations. But how can that be th

The article glosses over the "exceptions" bit and makes it seem like dropped the definitive article is the rule for the names of nations. But how can that be the rule when it isn't the case for the names of the predominant English speaking nations? Its The United States of America not United States of America. And its The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Not United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. You can argue if The is technically part of the name or not but its always used. The author seems to forget that definitive articles are often used to denote proper nouns in English. English is inconsistent on this, proper nouns don't have to include a definitive article. We rarely use them for names, probably because names are common. But if we do its to emphasize we are usually talking about the most prominent individual with that name. Ex: I'm not just talking about John Smith but The John Smith." Because of this, and that fact that many other languages do have stricter rules regarding inclusion of the definitive article like German, I think this is more about virtue signally than anything else. It reminds me of the whole "Latinx" thing, another term invented and pushed by English speaking Americans who are trying to push a specific agenda of inclusiveness while displaying their ignorance of the culture and language they wish to include. It's all very silly. Having said that, I've always called it just Ukraine. But that's because that's what I heard it called first.

throwusawayus 5y ago
> Its The United States of America not United States of America Not the same situation at all! With the US, "the" is officially part of the name of the country, used in the very first sentence of the US Constitution. And even before that, in the Articles of Confederation, stated explicitly in its article 1: The Stile of this Confederacy shall be "The United States of America."
- mardifoufs 5y ago
  Agreed, The Netherlands would be a better example
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    It would illustrate both a similarity and a difference: "The nether lands" of what? Well, they speak D(e)ut(s)ch... That's the similarity. The difference is, they've been an independent nation for so long they don't fear that this particular wording will be used to imply they aren't. For Ukraine, it is being used for that.
weinzierl 5y ago
> "Because of this, and that fact that many other languages do have stricter rules regarding inclusion of the definitive article like German, [..]" In German most states are neuter and go without article. If the state name is a plural (the United States), female or male it requires the article. Ukraine is female, so it is "die Ukraine" in German. Regions require an article (der Kaukasus = the Caucasus) like in English and similar to Russian. As always with languages, there are exceptions.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > Regions require an article (der Kaukasus = the Caucasus) like in English and similar to Russian. This seems to be the crux of the matter: The Z brigades are employing it so as to demote Ukraine from a nation to a region. (The purpose of that, in turn, being to answer the question "But if it's not a nation of its own, then what nation is it a region of?" with "Of Russia, of course".)
yladiz 5y ago
> I think this is more about virtue signally than anything else I don't really agree with you here, I think it's more about being respectful to the wishes of a country's people. Politics aside, Ukrainians do not want their country to be called "the Ukraine" in English, and respecting that isn't virtue signaling, it's just being respectful to that desire.
- thereddaikon 5y ago
  But see that's the thing. Every actual verified Ukrainian I've seen weigh in has said they don't really care. That's not to say that a sample size of several people can represent an entire nation. But I think its telling that everyone I've seen make a big deal out of it has been an American and I have yet to see a Ukrainian national do so. I think they all have bigger fish to fry at the moment.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > I have yet to see a Ukrainian national [care whether it's "Ukraine" or "the Ukraine"]. I think they all have bigger fish to fry at the moment. Which seems to imply that if they hadn't, perhaps they would.
CRConrad 5y ago
> Its The United States of America not United States of America. And its The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Not United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. You can argue if The is technically part of the name or not but its always used. The author seems to forget that definitive articles are often used to denote proper nouns in English. But those two are an exception, and AFAICS that's probably because they're not actually ordinary proper nouns -- they're noun phrases, where the main word is a common noun: The United Kingdom and The United States. There are no other nations with the same constituent words so you can't talk about a United Kingdom. And if there were it wouldn't make sense to talk of any United States; there's only one of each, so it's "the" one. > Having said that, I've always called it just Ukraine. But that's because that's what I heard it called first. The other way around for me (in English, that is), and I can still see that as defensible on grounds of linguistic conservatism: This constant changing of names of stuff, usually for reasons of "political correctness", is often damn silly and gets exceedingly tiresome after a while. But in this case, I'm working on dropping the "the". It's not really all that hard, when one limits it to actually deserving cases.

throwusawayus 5y ago

> Its The United States of America not United States of America Not the same situation at all! With the US, "the" is officially part of the name of the country, used in the very first sentence of the US Constitution. And even before that, in the Articles of Confederation, stated explicitly in its article 1: The Stile of this Confederacy shall be "The United States of America."

mardifoufs 5y ago
Agreed, The Netherlands would be a better example
- CRConrad 5y ago
  It would illustrate both a similarity and a difference: "The nether lands" of what? Well, they speak D(e)ut(s)ch... That's the similarity. The difference is, they've been an independent nation for so long they don't fear that this particular wording will be used to imply they aren't. For Ukraine, it is being used for that.

weinzierl 5y ago

> "Because of this, and that fact that many other languages do have stricter rules regarding inclusion of the definitive article like German, [..]" In German most states are neuter and go without article. If the state name is a plural (the United States), female or male it requires the article. Ukraine is female, so it is "die Ukraine" in German. Regions require an article (der Kaukasus = the Caucasus) like in English and similar to Russian. As always with languages, there are exceptions.

CRConrad 5y ago
> Regions require an article (der Kaukasus = the Caucasus) like in English and similar to Russian. This seems to be the crux of the matter: The Z brigades are employing it so as to demote Ukraine from a nation to a region. (The purpose of that, in turn, being to answer the question "But if it's not a nation of its own, then what nation is it a region of?" with "Of Russia, of course".)

yladiz 5y ago

> I think this is more about virtue signally than anything else I don't really agree with you here, I think it's more about being respectful to the wishes of a country's people. Politics aside, Ukrainians do not want their country to be called "the Ukraine" in English, and respecting that isn't virtue signaling, it's just being respectful to that desire.

thereddaikon 5y ago
But see that's the thing. Every actual verified Ukrainian I've seen weigh in has said they don't really care. That's not to say that a sample size of several people can represent an entire nation. But I think its telling that everyone I've seen make a big deal out of it has been an American and I have yet to see a Ukrainian national do so. I think they all have bigger fish to fry at the moment.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > I have yet to see a Ukrainian national [care whether it's "Ukraine" or "the Ukraine"]. I think they all have bigger fish to fry at the moment. Which seems to imply that if they hadn't, perhaps they would.

CRConrad 5y ago

> Its The United States of America not United States of America. And its The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Not United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. You can argue if The is technically part of the name or not but its always used. The author seems to forget that definitive articles are often used to denote proper nouns in English. But those two are an exception, and AFAICS that's probably because they're not actually ordinary proper nouns -- they're noun phrases, where the main word is a common noun: The United Kingdom and The United States. There are no other nations with the same constituent words so you can't talk about a United Kingdom. And if there were it wouldn't make sense to talk of any United States; there's only one of each, so it's "the" one. > Having said that, I've always called it just Ukraine. But that's because that's what I heard it called first. The other way around for me (in English, that is), and I can still see that as defensible on grounds of linguistic conservatism: This constant changing of names of stuff, usually for reasons of "political correctness", is often damn silly and gets exceedingly tiresome after a while. But in this case, I'm working on dropping the "the". It's not really all that hard, when one limits it to actually deserving cases.