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I appreciate this article, but this strikes me as the latest wave of Western style virtue signaling (for people who aren't actually fighting), and an attempt to

I appreciate this article, but this strikes me as the latest wave of Western style virtue signaling (for people who aren't actually fighting), and an attempt to create a new offensive reference out of nothing. I'm married to a Ukrainian (half of whose family has fled to Poland, the other half who is stuck in Kyiv due to the conscription laws), so the war has impacted us quite a bit and I wish it to be over soon. With that said, I've been informed that before this conflict started, there was nothing offensive about this linguistic difference (between saying "Ukraine" vs. "the Ukraine" in Russian). Similar to how British and U.S. English has subtle differences (in spelling or idioms), but one nationality hearing the other isn't offended by one practice or the other. Am I wrong? I'm curious what actual Ukrainians think about this. Was saying "the Ukraine" actually offensive to you, before this whole conflict started? (If so, I'll shut right the hell up.)

throwusawayus 5y ago
Anecdotal, but I have been told this long before this war: "There's no 'The' before Ukraine, and also there's no 't' at the end of 'borsch'" Why assume this is Western virtue signaling? The article explains the implications pretty well.
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  Interesting, and duly noted. > Why assume this is Western virtue signaling? In my case: because my wife (who is Ukrainian) told me so. I also have other Russian speaking friends (who live in the West though) who have expressed similar opinions. With that said: I'm open to changing my mind. And I get that words/phrases change in meaning over time, and gain new significance. Still curious what Ukrainians think: was this is a thing for you all, before this awful war?
  - yladiz 5y ago
    I'm not Ukrainian, but I have Ukrainian friends that have told me both that I shouldn't say/spell "the Ukraine" and should spell their capital city "Kyiv" years ago, well before this current war (although after Crimea was taken), so I think that, at least for some Ukrainians, it was a thing before the current war.
foogazi 5y ago
> this strikes me as the latest wave of Western style virtue signaling > I'm married to a Ukrainian (half of whose family has fled to Poland, the other half who is stuck in Kyiv due to the conscription laws) Another comment claims using Kyiv is itself Western virtue signaling - go figure
jgwil2 5y ago
> I've been informed that before this conflict started, there was nothing offensive about this linguistic difference (between saying "Ukraine" vs. "the Ukraine" in Russian) The Russian and Ukrainian languages don't have the definite article, so there is literally no way of saying "the Ukraine" in either.
- dmytrish 5y ago
  There is a very direct analog: the way you say "in Ukraine". In Russian/Ukrainian, both «на Україні» and «в Україні» аre grammatically correct, but the first one has the same connotation as 'the Ukraine', Ukraine being an open territory without borders, which is often the intentional undertone in modern Russian. Curiously, "na Ukrainie" in Polish usually does not bother us much, this usage does not feel directly linked to possible aggressive contempt, but more to archaic Polish perception of Ukraine from Middle Ages.
dmytrish 5y ago
(a Ukrainian here) It's not about Western virtue signaling. I don't feel that this is directly offensive (others might disagree), but it's often intentionally used in this way. It's more in line with inclusive language: it's about removing small jarring bits that hark back to gruesome history we'd like to leave in the past. Hearing "the Ukraine" is a bit jarring, because it makes me wary of other historical stereotypes that the speaker might have.

throwusawayus 5y ago

Anecdotal, but I have been told this long before this war: "There's no 'The' before Ukraine, and also there's no 't' at the end of 'borsch'" Why assume this is Western virtue signaling? The article explains the implications pretty well.

georgewsinger 5y ago
Interesting, and duly noted. > Why assume this is Western virtue signaling? In my case: because my wife (who is Ukrainian) told me so. I also have other Russian speaking friends (who live in the West though) who have expressed similar opinions. With that said: I'm open to changing my mind. And I get that words/phrases change in meaning over time, and gain new significance. Still curious what Ukrainians think: was this is a thing for you all, before this awful war?
- yladiz 5y ago
  I'm not Ukrainian, but I have Ukrainian friends that have told me both that I shouldn't say/spell "the Ukraine" and should spell their capital city "Kyiv" years ago, well before this current war (although after Crimea was taken), so I think that, at least for some Ukrainians, it was a thing before the current war.

foogazi 5y ago

> this strikes me as the latest wave of Western style virtue signaling > I'm married to a Ukrainian (half of whose family has fled to Poland, the other half who is stuck in Kyiv due to the conscription laws) Another comment claims using Kyiv is itself Western virtue signaling - go figure

jgwil2 5y ago

> I've been informed that before this conflict started, there was nothing offensive about this linguistic difference (between saying "Ukraine" vs. "the Ukraine" in Russian) The Russian and Ukrainian languages don't have the definite article, so there is literally no way of saying "the Ukraine" in either.

dmytrish 5y ago
There is a very direct analog: the way you say "in Ukraine". In Russian/Ukrainian, both «на Україні» and «в Україні» аre grammatically correct, but the first one has the same connotation as 'the Ukraine', Ukraine being an open territory without borders, which is often the intentional undertone in modern Russian. Curiously, "na Ukrainie" in Polish usually does not bother us much, this usage does not feel directly linked to possible aggressive contempt, but more to archaic Polish perception of Ukraine from Middle Ages.

dmytrish 5y ago

(a Ukrainian here) It's not about Western virtue signaling. I don't feel that this is directly offensive (others might disagree), but it's often intentionally used in this way. It's more in line with inclusive language: it's about removing small jarring bits that hark back to gruesome history we'd like to leave in the past. Hearing "the Ukraine" is a bit jarring, because it makes me wary of other historical stereotypes that the speaker might have.