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Crypto Startup That Wants to Scan Everyone’s Eyeballs Is Having Some Trouble

58 points by jmsflknr 5y ago

randomhodler84 5y ago
It’s all in bad faith. If it was done in good faith, they would be giving away Bitcoin sats for scanning the eyeballs. The fact they printed a shittoken is highly suspect. Please do not push your shitcoins on the developing world. Pushing your fake money is neocolonialism.
tgv 5y ago
That sounds as if it was set up to hit as many VC attracting keywords as possible.
- dpflan 5y ago
  Ha. Well, the about page for Worldcoin says nothing of its leadership and only lists investors, of which there are many. > https://worldcoin.org/about https://worldcoin.org/about
haspoken 5y ago
https://archive.ph/0Vwnv https://archive.ph/0Vwnv
- tag2103 5y ago
  Thanks
AlexandrB 5y ago
I don't get it. So the goal is to jumpstart a cryptocurrency, but make it equitable by giving equal shares to as many people as possible? But what happens next? I assume the same dynamics as with normal currency where the wealth is quickly concentrated in the hands of a few as most people spend their allotments on immediate needs like food and shelter. Does the free allotment program ever stop or are you SOL if you're not yet born? Edit: Ah, it uses the Ethereum blockchain[1]. Also, this is beyond parody: > We searched for existing devices that meet these requirements at a global scale, but found none. For this reason, Worldcoin developed the Orb. [1] https://worldcoin.org/how-the-launch-works https://worldcoin.org/how-the-launch-works
- gilleain 5y ago
  Hmmm. > ... entrepreneurial individuals all around the world who apply to receive an Orb to run independent operations in their communities Ok, so they get an 'Orb' ("a custom biometric device") and then .. > We call these individuals Orb Operators and give them the autonomy to build their operations from the ground up Generous of you, what do they do though? > So far, the best performing Operators have been able to onboard around one thousand users per Orb per week, with our best performing Operator even signing up 2,198 users in one week with a single Orb So they 'onboard' people with their Orbs. What does that involve? > 2. The Orb scans the user’s irises and locally computes the user’s IrisHash. Ok, sounds great. Are they sure that iris scans are unique?
  - elliekelly 5y ago
    Their Privacy... Page(?)[1] is pretty light on the privacy but has interesting details about how the scan supposedly works. [1]https://worldcoin.org/privacy-by-design https://worldcoin.org/privacy-by-design Edit- The prominent link in the footer labeled "Privacy" takes you to that blog post (just like the "Privacy" link in the menu) but the grey link in the footer labeled "Privacy Statement" takes you to their actual Privacy Policy: https://worldcoin.org/privacy-statement https://worldcoin.org/privacy-statement
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  It isn't even concentrated afterwards. There is a premine where the founders get a nontrivial amount of the currency. It starts concentrated.
gkoberger 5y ago
Everything I know about Sam Altman points to that he's different than the people you might associate him with. He really seems to be committed to making tech (and money) fair and equitable for everyone, and he's put out a lot of random projects with this intention. While not every idea is going to work, you should look into his writing and initiatives if you're curious. He doesn't have all the answers, but he is doing a lot of good stuff.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  What do you think about the argument (presented in this 2hr video[1] and elsewhere) that cryptocurrency, by its nature, is contrary to ideas like equality? For example, the deflationary nature of many cryptocurrencies means that early adopters get a huge leg up. But not all late adopters are late by choice, for example someone not yet born can't choose to invest in Bitcoin early and ride it "to the moon". [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g
  - jstx1 5y ago
    If it was about equality, there would be nothing to miss out on.
  - pcthrowaway 5y ago
    Capitalism by nature depends on (and incubates) inequality. Everything becomes about acquisition and hoarding of finite resources. Cryptocurrency, for good or bad, at least seems to democratize access to cryptocurrency systems and services (for some narrowly defined definition of what constitutes access). Anyone with cryptocurrency, unrestricted internet access, and a computing device can transact on the blockchain. That applies whether they have been erroneously flagged for ToS violation by google, or whether they're a corrupt nation-state that is being sanctioned by other countries. Anyone with the capital can purchase shares in a DAO without needing to be deemed a qualified investor (in theory, if such a DAO was actually decentralized). Or buy and sell crypto more than 5 times a day without meeting requirements to participate in pattern day trading. There are plenty of inherent problems also, but I think Olsen spends much of his video attacking strawmen. Crypto isn't going to solve inequality; the blockchain just provides a neutral place for parties to engage in various kinds of transactions/agreements.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
uncomputation 5y ago
> Asked about the complaints, Blania said that some operators were unhappy that the company would no longer be paying them, and said that some of them “did questionable things or didn’t perform well.” He also noted that the operators can have “very misaligned incentives” with the larger startup. Setting aside the initial operational challenges (national regulations, smartphone access, operator conduct), there seems to be a serious misunderstanding or perhaps oversimplification of economics for a “world coin.” Of course there is going to be fraud if the system you set up (where each operator gets paid for each person they recruit (a questionable distribution model already)) incentivizes recruitment only with no quality control. Of course there are going to be people scanning dog eyes, dead people’s eyes, eventually fake eyes because why wouldn’t they? You have not created a system where they should not do this, unless you’re relying on honesty, a strange assumption for a cryptocurrency. Paired with the seeming indignation the leadership has that people don’t like 1) not getting paid for their work and 2) when you close up shop after harvesting their biometric data, this seems to be a very naive system at the outset. Plus, really, you’re answer to “open source our biometric data we gave you” is “we’ll open source our protocol”? Cryptocurrency is about ownership. I own my private key, but now with world coin, I can’t own my own eyes?
- sjtindell 5y ago
  The lack of planning reeks of overconfidence. Being in that clique you’re almost guaranteed endless investment money and a huge valuation. In addition andreesen and Altman and their ilk must have been feeling very old and outdated not being in the crypto business conversation. They’ll leap at any opportunity to get in.
throwaway24124 5y ago
Hilarious that the "eyeball hash" is stored in a normal database, not the blockchain. And Worldcoin is already at a billion dollar valuation. I don't mean to turn this into a personal attack or flame-war, but I used to respect Sam Altman a lot. It was very hard to watch him transition OpenAI from a non-profit to a for-profit company, and now it's even harder to watch him jump into the crypto-scam game. I can understand why a young founder would pitch this- "Imagine, everyone on the planet will eventually become a user! Unlimited growth!" But someone like Sam Altman surely has made enough money at this point, so why get in on this? Genuinely asking, because I don't understand the point of this.
- dsco 5y ago
  - uncomputation 5y ago
    I’m sympathetic to cryptocurrency but here are the things that seem scammy to me, compared to other, non-scammy cryptocurrencies. 1. You are paid in a pyramid scheme model where you are paid for each recruitment you make regardless of economic contribution. Other cryptocurrencies pay for economic value (mining, validating, etc.). This pays just for signing people up. 2. Except actually you’re not paid because WorldCoin is having (surprise) regulation issues. 3. WorldCoin suddenly pulling out of countries due to regulation. In crypto-Twitter vernacular, a rug pull for the operators. 4. Closed source everything. Hardware design. Zero knowledge proof algorithm. 5. 3% pre-mine to founders. If this were to become a large currency, a few people would have 3% of the world’s money.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - throwaway24124 5y ago
    I'm not at all dismissive of crypto. I actually think there's a ton of opportunity to build a decentralized version of the large cloud providers like AWS and GCP as their pricing continues to increase. For example, I'm interested in seeing how [the Graph](https://thegraph.com/en/ https://thegraph.com/en/) develops. The current implementation isn't a totally decentralized GraphQL service, but I think it's a step in the right direction. One the other hand, Worldcoin is just another layer-2 coin built on top of Ethereum, and a regular CRUD app and database to upload/verify a hash of someone's retina scan. I just don't see anything novel about what they're doing, besides having a large VC capital infusion. It's just another crypto coin giveaway.
_alex_ 5y ago
Such a privacy nightmare. It's mind-boggling that a group of engineers brought this thing to life, the whole time thinking "this is a good idea. we'll compile a database of people's iris' and associate it with a public transaction ledger". The only world in which this makes sense is one where an express goal is to help the state track the money of individuals (you might like that in a democratic society with strong traditions around rule of law and due process, but may like it less in authoritarian nations).
cinntaile 5y ago
What happens when people get older? Can you still identify it's the same iris when the iris was scanned 15 years ago? I don't get what they are trying to solve. Just fair distribution of coins? Once everyone has an equal number of WorldCoins, then what is the plan?
armoredkitten 5y ago
I'm honestly astounded by this. This might just be the stupidest idea I've ever possibly heard. I mean, okay, "distributing money for everyone fairly" sounds noble (though maybe naive, too...), but like...literally everything beyond that point is either a) a terrible idea or b) impossible to implement in any meaningful way. And all that is not even getting to the absolute privacy nightmare that is this startup just going around collecting people's biometric data. Even Google, who has every other piece of data that's ever existed about me, doesn't have my eyeball data. I'm certainly not giving it to someone to get a little bit of crypto cash... I'm completely baffled at how this has any funding whatsoever.
- throwaway24124 5y ago
  I have to assume the goal is to collect a vast amount of biometric data and then be bought out by someone who wants that data. Here's everything they're collecting: - Images of users’ body, face, and eyes, including users’ irises (visible, near infrared and far infrared spectrum) - Three-dimensional mapping of users’ body and face https://worldcoin.org/privacy-during-field-testing https://worldcoin.org/privacy-during-field-testing
  - duskwuff 5y ago
    The official business plan for WorldCoin is just so bizarre that it's easier to believe conspiratorial explanations -- e.g. that its primary goal is to collect biometric data for some malign purpose, and the cryptocurrency is a post-hoc justification. Can the people that are being issued the WorldCoin cryptocurrency even use it in any practical terms? (The token with that name on CoinMarketCap is unrelated.) Is there even any way to verify that it's being issued?
- sjtindell 5y ago
  Distributing it to everyone is a marketing tactic. I’ve seen other projects consider this - you airdrop every single wallet on Ethereum some of your token and voila, “users”. It is not benevolent, it is a tactic to draw people in.
aaroninsf 5y ago
Who wants to join me in doing this exact thing with dental records? The market is so much higher, while there are fewer than living 10B customers today (including some pets), a dental version supports all 109B people who have ever lived. PLUS THEIR PETS! That is ALMOST 11x the potential market hence market cap!!! I am having trouble thinking of the dental equivalent to Orb though, everything I come up with sounds too squicky or I am afraid Disney owns, like the TOOTH-FAERY. So I need a cofounder.
- duskwuff 5y ago
  > I am having trouble thinking of the dental equivalent to Orb though Intra-oral 3D scanners are a thing. Some dentists use them to prepare dental prosthetics, like crowns. Using one to scan the whole mouth would be an uncomfortably intimate experience, though.

58 points by jmsflknr 5y ago

It’s all in bad faith. If it was done in good faith, they would be giving away Bitcoin sats for scanning the eyeballs. The fact they printed a shittoken is highly suspect. Please do not push your shitcoins on the developing world. Pushing your fake money is neocolonialism.

tgv 5y ago

That sounds as if it was set up to hit as many VC attracting keywords as possible.

dpflan 5y ago
Ha. Well, the about page for Worldcoin says nothing of its leadership and only lists investors, of which there are many. > https://worldcoin.org/about https://worldcoin.org/about

haspoken 5y ago

https://archive.ph/0Vwnv https://archive.ph/0Vwnv

tag2103 5y ago
Thanks

AlexandrB 5y ago

I don't get it. So the goal is to jumpstart a cryptocurrency, but make it equitable by giving equal shares to as many people as possible? But what happens next? I assume the same dynamics as with normal currency where the wealth is quickly concentrated in the hands of a few as most people spend their allotments on immediate needs like food and shelter. Does the free allotment program ever stop or are you SOL if you're not yet born? Edit: Ah, it uses the Ethereum blockchain[1]. Also, this is beyond parody: > We searched for existing devices that meet these requirements at a global scale, but found none. For this reason, Worldcoin developed the Orb. [1] https://worldcoin.org/how-the-launch-works https://worldcoin.org/how-the-launch-works

gilleain 5y ago
Hmmm. > ... entrepreneurial individuals all around the world who apply to receive an Orb to run independent operations in their communities Ok, so they get an 'Orb' ("a custom biometric device") and then .. > We call these individuals Orb Operators and give them the autonomy to build their operations from the ground up Generous of you, what do they do though? > So far, the best performing Operators have been able to onboard around one thousand users per Orb per week, with our best performing Operator even signing up 2,198 users in one week with a single Orb So they 'onboard' people with their Orbs. What does that involve? > 2. The Orb scans the user’s irises and locally computes the user’s IrisHash. Ok, sounds great. Are they sure that iris scans are unique?
- elliekelly 5y ago
  Their Privacy... Page(?)[1] is pretty light on the privacy but has interesting details about how the scan supposedly works. [1]https://worldcoin.org/privacy-by-design https://worldcoin.org/privacy-by-design Edit- The prominent link in the footer labeled "Privacy" takes you to that blog post (just like the "Privacy" link in the menu) but the grey link in the footer labeled "Privacy Statement" takes you to their actual Privacy Policy: https://worldcoin.org/privacy-statement https://worldcoin.org/privacy-statement
UncleMeat 5y ago
It isn't even concentrated afterwards. There is a premine where the founders get a nontrivial amount of the currency. It starts concentrated.

gkoberger 5y ago

Everything I know about Sam Altman points to that he's different than the people you might associate him with. He really seems to be committed to making tech (and money) fair and equitable for everyone, and he's put out a lot of random projects with this intention. While not every idea is going to work, you should look into his writing and initiatives if you're curious. He doesn't have all the answers, but he is doing a lot of good stuff.

AlexandrB 5y ago
What do you think about the argument (presented in this 2hr video[1] and elsewhere) that cryptocurrency, by its nature, is contrary to ideas like equality? For example, the deflationary nature of many cryptocurrencies means that early adopters get a huge leg up. But not all late adopters are late by choice, for example someone not yet born can't choose to invest in Bitcoin early and ride it "to the moon". [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g
- jstx1 5y ago
  If it was about equality, there would be nothing to miss out on.
- pcthrowaway 5y ago
  Capitalism by nature depends on (and incubates) inequality. Everything becomes about acquisition and hoarding of finite resources. Cryptocurrency, for good or bad, at least seems to democratize access to cryptocurrency systems and services (for some narrowly defined definition of what constitutes access). Anyone with cryptocurrency, unrestricted internet access, and a computing device can transact on the blockchain. That applies whether they have been erroneously flagged for ToS violation by google, or whether they're a corrupt nation-state that is being sanctioned by other countries. Anyone with the capital can purchase shares in a DAO without needing to be deemed a qualified investor (in theory, if such a DAO was actually decentralized). Or buy and sell crypto more than 5 times a day without meeting requirements to participate in pattern day trading. There are plenty of inherent problems also, but I think Olsen spends much of his video attacking strawmen. Crypto isn't going to solve inequality; the blockchain just provides a neutral place for parties to engage in various kinds of transactions/agreements.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

uncomputation 5y ago

> Asked about the complaints, Blania said that some operators were unhappy that the company would no longer be paying them, and said that some of them “did questionable things or didn’t perform well.” He also noted that the operators can have “very misaligned incentives” with the larger startup. Setting aside the initial operational challenges (national regulations, smartphone access, operator conduct), there seems to be a serious misunderstanding or perhaps oversimplification of economics for a “world coin.” Of course there is going to be fraud if the system you set up (where each operator gets paid for each person they recruit (a questionable distribution model already)) incentivizes recruitment only with no quality control. Of course there are going to be people scanning dog eyes, dead people’s eyes, eventually fake eyes because why wouldn’t they? You have not created a system where they should not do this, unless you’re relying on honesty, a strange assumption for a cryptocurrency. Paired with the seeming indignation the leadership has that people don’t like 1) not getting paid for their work and 2) when you close up shop after harvesting their biometric data, this seems to be a very naive system at the outset. Plus, really, you’re answer to “open source our biometric data we gave you” is “we’ll open source our protocol”? Cryptocurrency is about ownership. I own my private key, but now with world coin, I can’t own my own eyes?

sjtindell 5y ago
The lack of planning reeks of overconfidence. Being in that clique you’re almost guaranteed endless investment money and a huge valuation. In addition andreesen and Altman and their ilk must have been feeling very old and outdated not being in the crypto business conversation. They’ll leap at any opportunity to get in.

throwaway24124 5y ago

Hilarious that the "eyeball hash" is stored in a normal database, not the blockchain. And Worldcoin is already at a billion dollar valuation. I don't mean to turn this into a personal attack or flame-war, but I used to respect Sam Altman a lot. It was very hard to watch him transition OpenAI from a non-profit to a for-profit company, and now it's even harder to watch him jump into the crypto-scam game. I can understand why a young founder would pitch this- "Imagine, everyone on the planet will eventually become a user! Unlimited growth!" But someone like Sam Altman surely has made enough money at this point, so why get in on this? Genuinely asking, because I don't understand the point of this.

dsco 5y ago
- uncomputation 5y ago
  I’m sympathetic to cryptocurrency but here are the things that seem scammy to me, compared to other, non-scammy cryptocurrencies. 1. You are paid in a pyramid scheme model where you are paid for each recruitment you make regardless of economic contribution. Other cryptocurrencies pay for economic value (mining, validating, etc.). This pays just for signing people up. 2. Except actually you’re not paid because WorldCoin is having (surprise) regulation issues. 3. WorldCoin suddenly pulling out of countries due to regulation. In crypto-Twitter vernacular, a rug pull for the operators. 4. Closed source everything. Hardware design. Zero knowledge proof algorithm. 5. 3% pre-mine to founders. If this were to become a large currency, a few people would have 3% of the world’s money.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway24124 5y ago
  I'm not at all dismissive of crypto. I actually think there's a ton of opportunity to build a decentralized version of the large cloud providers like AWS and GCP as their pricing continues to increase. For example, I'm interested in seeing how [the Graph](https://thegraph.com/en/ https://thegraph.com/en/) develops. The current implementation isn't a totally decentralized GraphQL service, but I think it's a step in the right direction. One the other hand, Worldcoin is just another layer-2 coin built on top of Ethereum, and a regular CRUD app and database to upload/verify a hash of someone's retina scan. I just don't see anything novel about what they're doing, besides having a large VC capital infusion. It's just another crypto coin giveaway.

_alex_ 5y ago

Such a privacy nightmare. It's mind-boggling that a group of engineers brought this thing to life, the whole time thinking "this is a good idea. we'll compile a database of people's iris' and associate it with a public transaction ledger". The only world in which this makes sense is one where an express goal is to help the state track the money of individuals (you might like that in a democratic society with strong traditions around rule of law and due process, but may like it less in authoritarian nations).

cinntaile 5y ago

What happens when people get older? Can you still identify it's the same iris when the iris was scanned 15 years ago? I don't get what they are trying to solve. Just fair distribution of coins? Once everyone has an equal number of WorldCoins, then what is the plan?

armoredkitten 5y ago

I'm honestly astounded by this. This might just be the stupidest idea I've ever possibly heard. I mean, okay, "distributing money for everyone fairly" sounds noble (though maybe naive, too...), but like...literally everything beyond that point is either a) a terrible idea or b) impossible to implement in any meaningful way. And all that is not even getting to the absolute privacy nightmare that is this startup just going around collecting people's biometric data. Even Google, who has every other piece of data that's ever existed about me, doesn't have my eyeball data. I'm certainly not giving it to someone to get a little bit of crypto cash... I'm completely baffled at how this has any funding whatsoever.

throwaway24124 5y ago
I have to assume the goal is to collect a vast amount of biometric data and then be bought out by someone who wants that data. Here's everything they're collecting: - Images of users’ body, face, and eyes, including users’ irises (visible, near infrared and far infrared spectrum) - Three-dimensional mapping of users’ body and face https://worldcoin.org/privacy-during-field-testing https://worldcoin.org/privacy-during-field-testing
- duskwuff 5y ago
  The official business plan for WorldCoin is just so bizarre that it's easier to believe conspiratorial explanations -- e.g. that its primary goal is to collect biometric data for some malign purpose, and the cryptocurrency is a post-hoc justification. Can the people that are being issued the WorldCoin cryptocurrency even use it in any practical terms? (The token with that name on CoinMarketCap is unrelated.) Is there even any way to verify that it's being issued?
sjtindell 5y ago
Distributing it to everyone is a marketing tactic. I’ve seen other projects consider this - you airdrop every single wallet on Ethereum some of your token and voila, “users”. It is not benevolent, it is a tactic to draw people in.

aaroninsf 5y ago

Who wants to join me in doing this exact thing with dental records? The market is so much higher, while there are fewer than living 10B customers today (including some pets), a dental version supports all 109B people who have ever lived. PLUS THEIR PETS! That is ALMOST 11x the potential market hence market cap!!! I am having trouble thinking of the dental equivalent to Orb though, everything I come up with sounds too squicky or I am afraid Disney owns, like the TOOTH-FAERY. So I need a cofounder.

duskwuff 5y ago
> I am having trouble thinking of the dental equivalent to Orb though Intra-oral 3D scanners are a thing. Some dentists use them to prepare dental prosthetics, like crowns. Using one to scan the whole mouth would be an uncomfortably intimate experience, though.