4 ms·

> "I feel like ucranians are fellow europeans." > "If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one." The lack of a well-define

> "I feel like ucranians are fellow europeans." > "If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one." The lack of a well-defined and rational response, beyond vague feelings, is what causes this discussion to eventually reduce down to claims of pure racism. We're denying that there's racism and xenophobia involved, whilst simultaneously being unable to explain why we're seeing those differences. I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm merely observing. I hope you too can see why this ambiguity is problematic. > "There has been hundreds of thousands of non-european people inmigrating to Europe for years, but somehow we're hypocrites now." And there are many millions more that - given the same support and openness given to the Ukrainian people now - would leave the war-torn, collapsed countries they were born in and look for refuge in better societies in Europe. But those people aren't getting the same level of support. Why do we treat those groups differently then?

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>Why do we treat those groups differently then? Because it's much easier and safer to integrate people with the same religion, ethnicity, that come form a peaceful country with a good track record in STEM[1], meaning they have a high chance they will integrate well with the locals and be productive, with a low chance of unemployment, crime and social unrest that usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism. It's not racist to see that 2+2=4 and call a spade a spade. [1] Ukraine is 15th place in the world in terms of medal count at the international math Olympiad, ahead of many richer countries like France, Italy, Sweden, Netherlands, Austria, and is home to manufacturers of planes and jet engines and other engineering marvels like the Antonov 225
- eldaisfish 5y ago
  There's a lot of context missing here. Russia does as well as Ukraine in STEM fields and that is because of the Soviet Union making education cheap and accessible, not anything Ukraine specifically did. Are you sure that Ukrainians are the same ethnicity? Are you sure that Ukrainians share the same values about religion and human rights as western europe? >usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism. You could use this exact sentence to describe many regions behind the iron curtain, Ukraine included. It's really telling how many people here are willing to bend over backwards to paint Ukraine as a progressive, "Western compatible" country all the while pretending that there is zero racism in these attitudes.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    Yeah, Ukraine has the same issue every other post-Soviet country has, even the EU ones, like corruption and poverty. But after the 2014 revolution the people of Ukraine proved that they prefer western values more than being Putin's puppet state.
    - ir123 5y ago
      What are western values?
      - bmn__ 5y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17284511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17284511
- csmpltn 5y ago
  You're making a lot of broad, unfounded claims. According to [1], Ukraine has a "A long path towards integration" (into the European Union): > "Of course, it is not only Ukraine’s population but its level of economic development that makes membership so costly for the EU. Ukraine is much poorer than Bulgaria, the poorest existing EU member state. Using 2013 World Bank pre-crisis (mid-year) figures, Ukraine’s GDP per capita ($3,900) was slightly over half (53%) that of Bulgaria ($7,340). Ukraine’s GDP per capita is also just over one-tenth (11%) that of the EU average ($34,240). For the sake of comparison, the GDP per capita of Croatia, the newest EU member, is almost identical to that of Poland ($13,520) and higher than that of the largest candidate country Turkey ($10,945)." "Ukraine’s membership prospects are also linked to significant legal and political challenges. In discussions over Ukraine’s Association Agreement, EU negotiators repeatedly expressed concern over Ukraine’s high level of corruption, and insisted upon reforms within the judicial and electoral systems, as well as the release of former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko from prison for medical treatment." [1] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/eu-accession-and-ukraine-crisis/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/eu-accession-and-ukrain... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine_Association_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_enlargement_of_the_European_Union#cite_note-65 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_enlargement_of_the_E...
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    I was talking about the Ukrainian people and you're talking about Ukraine the country. Different things.
    - csmpltn 5y ago
      > "I was talking about the Ukrainian people and you're talking about Ukraine the country. Different things." I think this is where this conversation is going to have to end, because I don't think this is a reasonable, or a rational argument to make. We've started this thread by trying to better understand why many other countries who are in a way worse situation do not get the same help offered now to Ukraine - and you're response is now basically down to "because the Ukrainian people are special and I know it".
spaniard89277 5y ago
They are not getting the same level of support? Last time I checked there was free housing, food etc and guidance for all of them, not to mention the thousands of NGOs that cover all roles. I'm sorry but all I can see in this criticism is people who feel uneasy because we feel closer to Ucranians. I don't feel sorry for it, honestly.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

>Why do we treat those groups differently then? Because it's much easier and safer to integrate people with the same religion, ethnicity, that come form a peaceful country with a good track record in STEM[1], meaning they have a high chance they will integrate well with the locals and be productive, with a low chance of unemployment, crime and social unrest that usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism. It's not racist to see that 2+2=4 and call a spade a spade. [1] Ukraine is 15th place in the world in terms of medal count at the international math Olympiad, ahead of many richer countries like France, Italy, Sweden, Netherlands, Austria, and is home to manufacturers of planes and jet engines and other engineering marvels like the Antonov 225

eldaisfish 5y ago
There's a lot of context missing here. Russia does as well as Ukraine in STEM fields and that is because of the Soviet Union making education cheap and accessible, not anything Ukraine specifically did. Are you sure that Ukrainians are the same ethnicity? Are you sure that Ukrainians share the same values about religion and human rights as western europe? >usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism. You could use this exact sentence to describe many regions behind the iron curtain, Ukraine included. It's really telling how many people here are willing to bend over backwards to paint Ukraine as a progressive, "Western compatible" country all the while pretending that there is zero racism in these attitudes.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  Yeah, Ukraine has the same issue every other post-Soviet country has, even the EU ones, like corruption and poverty. But after the 2014 revolution the people of Ukraine proved that they prefer western values more than being Putin's puppet state.
  - ir123 5y ago
    What are western values?
    - bmn__ 5y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17284511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17284511
csmpltn 5y ago
You're making a lot of broad, unfounded claims. According to [1], Ukraine has a "A long path towards integration" (into the European Union): > "Of course, it is not only Ukraine’s population but its level of economic development that makes membership so costly for the EU. Ukraine is much poorer than Bulgaria, the poorest existing EU member state. Using 2013 World Bank pre-crisis (mid-year) figures, Ukraine’s GDP per capita ($3,900) was slightly over half (53%) that of Bulgaria ($7,340). Ukraine’s GDP per capita is also just over one-tenth (11%) that of the EU average ($34,240). For the sake of comparison, the GDP per capita of Croatia, the newest EU member, is almost identical to that of Poland ($13,520) and higher than that of the largest candidate country Turkey ($10,945)." "Ukraine’s membership prospects are also linked to significant legal and political challenges. In discussions over Ukraine’s Association Agreement, EU negotiators repeatedly expressed concern over Ukraine’s high level of corruption, and insisted upon reforms within the judicial and electoral systems, as well as the release of former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko from prison for medical treatment." [1] https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/eu-accession-and-ukraine-crisis/ https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/eu-accession-and-ukrain... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine_Association_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union%E2%80%93Ukraine... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_enlargement_of_the_European_Union#cite_note-65 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_enlargement_of_the_E...
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  I was talking about the Ukrainian people and you're talking about Ukraine the country. Different things.
  - csmpltn 5y ago
    > "I was talking about the Ukrainian people and you're talking about Ukraine the country. Different things." I think this is where this conversation is going to have to end, because I don't think this is a reasonable, or a rational argument to make. We've started this thread by trying to better understand why many other countries who are in a way worse situation do not get the same help offered now to Ukraine - and you're response is now basically down to "because the Ukrainian people are special and I know it".

spaniard89277 5y ago

They are not getting the same level of support? Last time I checked there was free housing, food etc and guidance for all of them, not to mention the thousands of NGOs that cover all roles. I'm sorry but all I can see in this criticism is people who feel uneasy because we feel closer to Ucranians. I don't feel sorry for it, honestly.