4 ms·

> We're helping our neighbour. Cynical view here: We're helping ourselves. We all know how difficult is to find good devs (edited: with subpar compensation) n

> We're helping our neighbour. Cynical view here: We're helping ourselves. We all know how difficult is to find good devs (edited: with subpar compensation) nowadays. The same applies on different fields also. As an anecdote, Portuguese government is _actively_ asking Ukrainian refugees to come to Portugal and sending them directly to areas known for chronic worker shortage. Ukrainians, typically, are not social security abusers and as such well seen by natives here. However, Portugal is not being successful and the low wages are being appointed (by our journalists) as the main reason why. This also means that other countries are competing for them.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>We all know how difficult is to find good devs nowadays. Difficult to find good devs willing to work for peanuts maybe. Companies with a great culture and paying top dollar/euro have no trouble getting an influx of quality people, even willing to grind through several stages of interview practices to get in. By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality Ferraris. Though I omit to say my budget of $5000 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good Ferraris are tough to find. >Cynical view here: We're helping ourselves. More like companies are helping themselves here. I'm supporting all Ukrainian refugees, not just the devs, but it's funny to see Norwegian companies cooperate to attract foreign talent and spin this into some benevolent charity work when they're just looking after their interests, to suppress local market wages.
- gruez 5y ago
  >By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality Ferraris. Though I omit to say my budget of $5000 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good Ferraris are tough to find. Can we extend this to more sympathetic/relatable goods? ie. "By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality GPUs. Though I omit to say my budget of $500 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good GPUs are tough to find." Or "By the same logic, I also have trouble finding PS5s. Though I omit to say my budget of $500 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that PS5s are tough to find."
- yreg 5y ago
  I disagree that anything below the "top dollar" is peanuts. I would consider even a fraction of what big tech pays to be fair enough. Thanks to scarcity we can ask for more.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >I would consider even a fraction of what big tech pays to be fair enough. Thanks to scarcity we can ask for more. Maybe in the US and Berlin/London/Amsterdam that holds true where VC money is constantly raining from the sky keeping the demand higher than the labor supply, but in most of west EU, outside of big tech, the pay of most IT & dev jobs are in line with all other office work grunts. I wouldn't consider the 50K for mid levels and 80K for seniors, a dev salary to write home about in a high CoL EU country. Making the labor pool bigger will not improve the wages.
    - yreg 5y ago
      My point is it's not peanuts either.
      - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
        I know this can sound very first world problem in the current context, but peanuts is always relative to how much things cost in your environment and how much the purchasing power of everyone else is. If every office worker earns as much as every dev then devs do earn peanuts. Devs in the US and other regions have the unique advantage of earning far more then the median in that area, therefore not peanuts. Like how if you're earning on 80k in SF you're basically in poverty despite being in the 5% top earners globally.
blub 5y ago
Maybe in this particular case of the job board, since SW developers have an easier time finding jobs and can in principle work in English. But for everyone else I bet that the EU will fail to integrate them into the labour market, while still having to offer healthcare, accommodation and other kinds of support, financial or otherwise. There is no way that this is a win for the EU, otherwise they would have done something similar years ago.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

>We all know how difficult is to find good devs nowadays. Difficult to find good devs willing to work for peanuts maybe. Companies with a great culture and paying top dollar/euro have no trouble getting an influx of quality people, even willing to grind through several stages of interview practices to get in. By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality Ferraris. Though I omit to say my budget of $5000 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good Ferraris are tough to find. >Cynical view here: We're helping ourselves. More like companies are helping themselves here. I'm supporting all Ukrainian refugees, not just the devs, but it's funny to see Norwegian companies cooperate to attract foreign talent and spin this into some benevolent charity work when they're just looking after their interests, to suppress local market wages.

gruez 5y ago
>By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality Ferraris. Though I omit to say my budget of $5000 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good Ferraris are tough to find. Can we extend this to more sympathetic/relatable goods? ie. "By the same logic, I also have trouble finding quality GPUs. Though I omit to say my budget of $500 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that good GPUs are tough to find." Or "By the same logic, I also have trouble finding PS5s. Though I omit to say my budget of $500 might be the main issue here, so I spread propaganda everywhere that PS5s are tough to find."
yreg 5y ago
I disagree that anything below the "top dollar" is peanuts. I would consider even a fraction of what big tech pays to be fair enough. Thanks to scarcity we can ask for more.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >I would consider even a fraction of what big tech pays to be fair enough. Thanks to scarcity we can ask for more. Maybe in the US and Berlin/London/Amsterdam that holds true where VC money is constantly raining from the sky keeping the demand higher than the labor supply, but in most of west EU, outside of big tech, the pay of most IT & dev jobs are in line with all other office work grunts. I wouldn't consider the 50K for mid levels and 80K for seniors, a dev salary to write home about in a high CoL EU country. Making the labor pool bigger will not improve the wages.
  - yreg 5y ago
    My point is it's not peanuts either.
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      I know this can sound very first world problem in the current context, but peanuts is always relative to how much things cost in your environment and how much the purchasing power of everyone else is. If every office worker earns as much as every dev then devs do earn peanuts. Devs in the US and other regions have the unique advantage of earning far more then the median in that area, therefore not peanuts. Like how if you're earning on 80k in SF you're basically in poverty despite being in the 5% top earners globally.

blub 5y ago

Maybe in this particular case of the job board, since SW developers have an easier time finding jobs and can in principle work in English. But for everyone else I bet that the EU will fail to integrate them into the labour market, while still having to offer healthcare, accommodation and other kinds of support, financial or otherwise. There is no way that this is a win for the EU, otherwise they would have done something similar years ago.