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> "People go up and above for Ukraine because they're that neighbour" Where do you draw the line on "neighbor"? Why Ukraine but not Syria?

spaniard89277 5y ago
I feel like ucranians are fellow europeans. I guess it's the same for Norweigians. If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one. Anyway, I'd like to say that people is being too cynical about this. There has been, and there are right now, many efforts in Europe for supporting and integrating non-european refugees and inmigrants. This "oh look, they care because they're white", well, there's a lot of selection bias right there, and I don't think we should be sorry to care about people we feel it's the same to us. There has been hundreds of thousands of non-european people inmigrating to Europe for years, but somehow we're hypocrites now.
- csmpltn 5y ago
  > "I feel like ucranians are fellow europeans." > "If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one." The lack of a well-defined and rational response, beyond vague feelings, is what causes this discussion to eventually reduce down to claims of pure racism. We're denying that there's racism and xenophobia involved, whilst simultaneously being unable to explain why we're seeing those differences. I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm merely observing. I hope you too can see why this ambiguity is problematic. > "There has been hundreds of thousands of non-european people inmigrating to Europe for years, but somehow we're hypocrites now." And there are many millions more that - given the same support and openness given to the Ukrainian people now - would leave the war-torn, collapsed countries they were born in and look for refuge in better societies in Europe. But those people aren't getting the same level of support. Why do we treat those groups differently then?
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >Why do we treat those groups differently then? Because it's much easier and safer to integrate people with the same religion, ethnicity, that come form a peaceful country with a good track record in STEM[1], meaning they have a high chance they will integrate well with the locals and be productive, with a low chance of unemployment, crime and social unrest that usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism. It's not racist to see that 2+2=4 and call a spade a spade. [1] Ukraine is 15th place in the world in terms of medal count at the international math Olympiad, ahead of many richer countries like France, Italy, Sweden, Netherlands, Austria, and is home to manufacturers of planes and jet engines and other engineering marvels like the Antonov 225
    - eldaisfish 5y ago
      There's a lot of context missing here. Russia does as well as Ukraine in STEM fields and that is because of the Soviet Union making education cheap and accessible, not anything Ukraine specifically did. Are you sure that Ukrainians are the same ethnicity? Are you sure that Ukrainians share the same values about religion and human rights as western europe? >usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism. You could use this exact sentence to describe many regions behind the iron curtain, Ukraine included. It's really telling how many people here are willing to bend over backwards to paint Ukraine as a progressive, "Western compatible" country all the while pretending that there is zero racism in these attitudes.
      - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
        Yeah, Ukraine has the same issue every other post-Soviet country has, even the EU ones, like corruption and poverty. But after the 2014 revolution the people of Ukraine proved that they prefer western values more than being Putin's puppet state.
        ir123 5y ago
  - spaniard89277 5y ago
    They are not getting the same level of support? Last time I checked there was free housing, food etc and guidance for all of them, not to mention the thousands of NGOs that cover all roles. I'm sorry but all I can see in this criticism is people who feel uneasy because we feel closer to Ucranians. I don't feel sorry for it, honestly.
gitfan86 5y ago
Humans are tribal in hundreds of different dimensions. For example, If two people riding Harley motorcycles and two other people driving converted camper vans all arrive at a rest stop at the same time, it is likely that they will be friendly with each other based on the type of vehicle they arrived in. But religion,politics,race,gender,age,nationality all can be big ones as well. Syria hits a lot of those.
fwr 5y ago
Where do you draw the line on "neighbor"? Somebody who lives in your general area, or somebody from the other side of the world?
have_faith 5y ago
> Where do you draw the line There is no universal logical line. It is also very patronising to try and tell a cultral group of people who they should or shouldn't consider their neighbour. This isn't to say comparisons shouldn't be drawn between the different scenarios just that doing so while proposing that the solution is racism (or similar) will lead to nothing consutructive and only bitterness and resentment at the accusations.
cute_boi 5y ago
I call this term "minor privilege". West is affluent, and they are likely to donate if some is victim from their group. Syria is not in west, so they aren't born with that privilege and many west aren't emphatic to them due to various reasons like media coverage, leaders etc.
- blub 5y ago
  Syria’s not in Western, Eastern or any Europe. Might as well be Papua New Guinea, there’s zero connection there. The horror stories like “Syrian refugee kills pregnant woman with machete” or “10 men gang rape woman outside nightclub” (8/10 being Syrian refugees) certainly aren’t helping either.
blub 5y ago
Being on the same continent is a very basic minimum requirement which Syria doesn’t pass.
- csmpltn 5y ago
  > "Being on the same continent is a very basic minimum requirement which Syria doesn’t pass." Why is being on the same continent a "very basic minimum requirement"?
  - blub 5y ago
    Because neighbor in this context literally means next to or very near another country. Open any map and you’ll se that Syria’s neighbors are Iraq and Turkey, not Sweden and Germany. The EU doesn’t owe any support to Syria, critics should be thankful that the EU is doing so much given the cost in social harmony and a rise in extreme right-wing sentiments.
    - csmpltn 5y ago
      > "Because neighbor in this context literally means next to or very near another country. Open any map and you’ll se that Syria’s neighbors are Iraq and Turkey, not Sweden and Germany." Sweden and Germany aren't next to, or "very near" to, Ukraine. Next to Ukraine are Russia, Belarus, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Moldova, Poland and Turkey. If you're fine with people from Ukraine coming to Sweden and Germany on the basis of Ukraine's geographical proximity to those countries, I'm not sure why you'd be against people from Syria coming to Sweden and Germany. A lot of Syrians sought asylum in Greece and Italy - they're not that far from Syria after-all? > "The EU doesn’t owe any support to Syria" What does the EU "owe" Ukraine? Ukraine isn't a member state either, just like Syria. Does the EU also owe Georgia or Moldova anything? I think you need to take a break and contemplate your biases and presuppositions towards people.
      - blub 5y ago
        Western Europe are helping Poland and Romania which are direct neighbors and do have to accept refugees. Actually the real mystery is why the EU would take anyone at all from Syria, which is pure courtesy and zero obligation. And the answer is that the EU is a wannabe moral superpower that’s great at taking in refugees (or people claiming to be refugees) and bad at everything that comes after. It’s already over its capacity to absorb outsiders. In the end the EU heads of state act surprised that anti-foreigner sentiments and the popularity of right-wing parties are rising, rinse and repeat while the wheels haven’t fallen off yet. The UK seem to know their limits since their new found independence and just as expected they’re getting skewered for not throwing the gates wide open.

spaniard89277 5y ago

I feel like ucranians are fellow europeans. I guess it's the same for Norweigians. If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one. Anyway, I'd like to say that people is being too cynical about this. There has been, and there are right now, many efforts in Europe for supporting and integrating non-european refugees and inmigrants. This "oh look, they care because they're white", well, there's a lot of selection bias right there, and I don't think we should be sorry to care about people we feel it's the same to us. There has been hundreds of thousands of non-european people inmigrating to Europe for years, but somehow we're hypocrites now.

csmpltn 5y ago
> "I feel like ucranians are fellow europeans." > "If you look for a well-defined and rational response, I don't think there's one." The lack of a well-defined and rational response, beyond vague feelings, is what causes this discussion to eventually reduce down to claims of pure racism. We're denying that there's racism and xenophobia involved, whilst simultaneously being unable to explain why we're seeing those differences. I'm not accusing you of anything, I'm merely observing. I hope you too can see why this ambiguity is problematic. > "There has been hundreds of thousands of non-european people inmigrating to Europe for years, but somehow we're hypocrites now." And there are many millions more that - given the same support and openness given to the Ukrainian people now - would leave the war-torn, collapsed countries they were born in and look for refuge in better societies in Europe. But those people aren't getting the same level of support. Why do we treat those groups differently then?
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >Why do we treat those groups differently then? Because it's much easier and safer to integrate people with the same religion, ethnicity, that come form a peaceful country with a good track record in STEM[1], meaning they have a high chance they will integrate well with the locals and be productive, with a low chance of unemployment, crime and social unrest that usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism. It's not racist to see that 2+2=4 and call a spade a spade. [1] Ukraine is 15th place in the world in terms of medal count at the international math Olympiad, ahead of many richer countries like France, Italy, Sweden, Netherlands, Austria, and is home to manufacturers of planes and jet engines and other engineering marvels like the Antonov 225
  - eldaisfish 5y ago
    There's a lot of context missing here. Russia does as well as Ukraine in STEM fields and that is because of the Soviet Union making education cheap and accessible, not anything Ukraine specifically did. Are you sure that Ukrainians are the same ethnicity? Are you sure that Ukrainians share the same values about religion and human rights as western europe? >usually comes from importing people from countries with a long history of extreme poverty, crime, civil wars, LGBT & human rights abuse, poor education and religious fanatism. You could use this exact sentence to describe many regions behind the iron curtain, Ukraine included. It's really telling how many people here are willing to bend over backwards to paint Ukraine as a progressive, "Western compatible" country all the while pretending that there is zero racism in these attitudes.
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      Yeah, Ukraine has the same issue every other post-Soviet country has, even the EU ones, like corruption and poverty. But after the 2014 revolution the people of Ukraine proved that they prefer western values more than being Putin's puppet state.
      - ir123 5y ago
- spaniard89277 5y ago
  They are not getting the same level of support? Last time I checked there was free housing, food etc and guidance for all of them, not to mention the thousands of NGOs that cover all roles. I'm sorry but all I can see in this criticism is people who feel uneasy because we feel closer to Ucranians. I don't feel sorry for it, honestly.

gitfan86 5y ago

Humans are tribal in hundreds of different dimensions. For example, If two people riding Harley motorcycles and two other people driving converted camper vans all arrive at a rest stop at the same time, it is likely that they will be friendly with each other based on the type of vehicle they arrived in. But religion,politics,race,gender,age,nationality all can be big ones as well. Syria hits a lot of those.

fwr 5y ago

Where do you draw the line on "neighbor"? Somebody who lives in your general area, or somebody from the other side of the world?

have_faith 5y ago

> Where do you draw the line There is no universal logical line. It is also very patronising to try and tell a cultral group of people who they should or shouldn't consider their neighbour. This isn't to say comparisons shouldn't be drawn between the different scenarios just that doing so while proposing that the solution is racism (or similar) will lead to nothing consutructive and only bitterness and resentment at the accusations.

cute_boi 5y ago

I call this term "minor privilege". West is affluent, and they are likely to donate if some is victim from their group. Syria is not in west, so they aren't born with that privilege and many west aren't emphatic to them due to various reasons like media coverage, leaders etc.

blub 5y ago
Syria’s not in Western, Eastern or any Europe. Might as well be Papua New Guinea, there’s zero connection there. The horror stories like “Syrian refugee kills pregnant woman with machete” or “10 men gang rape woman outside nightclub” (8/10 being Syrian refugees) certainly aren’t helping either.

blub 5y ago

Being on the same continent is a very basic minimum requirement which Syria doesn’t pass.

csmpltn 5y ago
> "Being on the same continent is a very basic minimum requirement which Syria doesn’t pass." Why is being on the same continent a "very basic minimum requirement"?
- blub 5y ago
  Because neighbor in this context literally means next to or very near another country. Open any map and you’ll se that Syria’s neighbors are Iraq and Turkey, not Sweden and Germany. The EU doesn’t owe any support to Syria, critics should be thankful that the EU is doing so much given the cost in social harmony and a rise in extreme right-wing sentiments.
  - csmpltn 5y ago
    > "Because neighbor in this context literally means next to or very near another country. Open any map and you’ll se that Syria’s neighbors are Iraq and Turkey, not Sweden and Germany." Sweden and Germany aren't next to, or "very near" to, Ukraine. Next to Ukraine are Russia, Belarus, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, Moldova, Poland and Turkey. If you're fine with people from Ukraine coming to Sweden and Germany on the basis of Ukraine's geographical proximity to those countries, I'm not sure why you'd be against people from Syria coming to Sweden and Germany. A lot of Syrians sought asylum in Greece and Italy - they're not that far from Syria after-all? > "The EU doesn’t owe any support to Syria" What does the EU "owe" Ukraine? Ukraine isn't a member state either, just like Syria. Does the EU also owe Georgia or Moldova anything? I think you need to take a break and contemplate your biases and presuppositions towards people.
    - blub 5y ago
      Western Europe are helping Poland and Romania which are direct neighbors and do have to accept refugees. Actually the real mystery is why the EU would take anyone at all from Syria, which is pure courtesy and zero obligation. And the answer is that the EU is a wannabe moral superpower that’s great at taking in refugees (or people claiming to be refugees) and bad at everything that comes after. It’s already over its capacity to absorb outsiders. In the end the EU heads of state act surprised that anti-foreigner sentiments and the popularity of right-wing parties are rising, rinse and repeat while the wheels haven’t fallen off yet. The UK seem to know their limits since their new found independence and just as expected they’re getting skewered for not throwing the gates wide open.