4 ms·

Nobody will claim any military action is a good thing. But you equally cannot say this conflict just started a few weeks ago. If NATO hadn't pushed further and

Nobody will claim any military action is a good thing. But you equally cannot say this conflict just started a few weeks ago. If NATO hadn't pushed further and further (and went against what was agreed), we would have never had that issue in the first place, as Ukraine wouldn't have been turned into a pawn against Russia. This issue has been known for decades. Biden mentioned it 20 years ago already - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNgCwoaT9u4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNgCwoaT9u4 I can only highly recommend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 as well.

emptysongglass 5y ago
You are discussing the former satellite states of the USSR and Ukraine as if they didn't have their own right to choose. Ukraine would say it is not a pawn of anyone but is in service to its people and their desire to live free of a brutal overlord whose number one tactic in war is shelling cities (see Chechnya), which overwhelmingly kills civilians. The entire Russian war doctrine is anchored around its artillery. When more than 180,000 Russian troops massed at Ukraine's border a few weeks ago whose choice was it to invade? Putin made that choice. Trotting out the much-worn Mearsheimer video (I didn't even need to click the link to know) is of little service as the fault of this invasion is not on NATO. I have already established that in my earlier comments. Mearsheimer has perhaps served as Russia's greatest propagandist to the armchair intelligentsia of those who subscribe to a decidedly red realpolitik.
- fortnum 5y ago
  No offence, but the bias mentioned by verisimi earlier seems to be quite obvious at this point. I don't think continuing the discussion makes much sense.
  - emptysongglass 5y ago
    Well, I am currently trying to help a Russian escape Russia for his antiwar sentiments so you really ought to be clear about which part of anti-Russian bias I am representing. Should you have arguments that don't lean on Mearsheimer or provably false promises against NATO expansion [1], I'd be happy to continue. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-...
    - fortnum 5y ago
      > escape Russia I am not sure how that disproves your bias, respectively what that is even supposed to mean. I am not aware of any travel restrictions, so there's no "escape". I am also not quite sure why you are so dismissive of Mearsheimer. But again, there will be little point in continuing the discussion.
      - jaynetics 5y ago
        > I am not aware of any travel restrictions, so there's no "escape". https://zona.media/article/2022/03/02/border https://zona.media/article/2022/03/02/border
  - vegai_ 5y ago
    I bothered taking a look at verisimi's earlier comments. It's absolutely clear that he has a strong pro-Russia position, and given how his account is 6 months old, it's possible that he's here only to spread pro-Russian talking points. Continuing discussion with such people/russotrolls[0] is pointless, indeed. Too bad this site doesn't have a block user functionality. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Putins-Trolls-Frontlines-Russias-Information/dp/1632461293 https://www.amazon.com/Putins-Trolls-Frontlines-Russias-Info...
    - verisimi 5y ago
      I'm glad you did a little research on my history - all credit to you. But I'm not glad you characterise me as a troll - its just not true. While I am not lining up to shout hate at "Russia" (as if all individuals who live in a place called 'Russia' line up behind Putin), I've no illusions that they are better than our Western governments - I'm sure they are as bad. If you had dug a little deeper this would have become obvious to you. If you were to try to characterise me as something, I'd thank you to get it right - I am anti-statist (aka anarchist). I see the state and any external governance as an immoral structure, with no legitimate authority over an individual. I will point you to this quote from Nietzsche to capture how I feel about all governance structures: "A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth: "I, the state, am the people."" But what of you? How easy is it for you to smear commentators of comments you don't like? Do you ever consider that your approach is outrageous and immoral? Is it ok to label someone as 'whatever-it-is-you-dont-like-today' and to be ignored rather than engage in a conversation? Do you ever think that in calling for people to be de-platformed, you are in fact part of the problem?
      - vegai_ 5y ago
        > But I'm not glad you characterise me as a troll - its just not true. My comment and especially that part was over the line -- I apologize.
        verisimi 5y ago
        Cheers :)

emptysongglass 5y ago

You are discussing the former satellite states of the USSR and Ukraine as if they didn't have their own right to choose. Ukraine would say it is not a pawn of anyone but is in service to its people and their desire to live free of a brutal overlord whose number one tactic in war is shelling cities (see Chechnya), which overwhelmingly kills civilians. The entire Russian war doctrine is anchored around its artillery. When more than 180,000 Russian troops massed at Ukraine's border a few weeks ago whose choice was it to invade? Putin made that choice. Trotting out the much-worn Mearsheimer video (I didn't even need to click the link to know) is of little service as the fault of this invasion is not on NATO. I have already established that in my earlier comments. Mearsheimer has perhaps served as Russia's greatest propagandist to the armchair intelligentsia of those who subscribe to a decidedly red realpolitik.

fortnum 5y ago
No offence, but the bias mentioned by verisimi earlier seems to be quite obvious at this point. I don't think continuing the discussion makes much sense.
- emptysongglass 5y ago
  Well, I am currently trying to help a Russian escape Russia for his antiwar sentiments so you really ought to be clear about which part of anti-Russian bias I am representing. Should you have arguments that don't lean on Mearsheimer or provably false promises against NATO expansion [1], I'd be happy to continue. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-...
  - fortnum 5y ago
    > escape Russia I am not sure how that disproves your bias, respectively what that is even supposed to mean. I am not aware of any travel restrictions, so there's no "escape". I am also not quite sure why you are so dismissive of Mearsheimer. But again, there will be little point in continuing the discussion.
    - jaynetics 5y ago
      > I am not aware of any travel restrictions, so there's no "escape". https://zona.media/article/2022/03/02/border https://zona.media/article/2022/03/02/border
- vegai_ 5y ago
  I bothered taking a look at verisimi's earlier comments. It's absolutely clear that he has a strong pro-Russia position, and given how his account is 6 months old, it's possible that he's here only to spread pro-Russian talking points. Continuing discussion with such people/russotrolls[0] is pointless, indeed. Too bad this site doesn't have a block user functionality. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Putins-Trolls-Frontlines-Russias-Information/dp/1632461293 https://www.amazon.com/Putins-Trolls-Frontlines-Russias-Info...
  - verisimi 5y ago
    I'm glad you did a little research on my history - all credit to you. But I'm not glad you characterise me as a troll - its just not true. While I am not lining up to shout hate at "Russia" (as if all individuals who live in a place called 'Russia' line up behind Putin), I've no illusions that they are better than our Western governments - I'm sure they are as bad. If you had dug a little deeper this would have become obvious to you. If you were to try to characterise me as something, I'd thank you to get it right - I am anti-statist (aka anarchist). I see the state and any external governance as an immoral structure, with no legitimate authority over an individual. I will point you to this quote from Nietzsche to capture how I feel about all governance structures: "A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth: "I, the state, am the people."" But what of you? How easy is it for you to smear commentators of comments you don't like? Do you ever consider that your approach is outrageous and immoral? Is it ok to label someone as 'whatever-it-is-you-dont-like-today' and to be ignored rather than engage in a conversation? Do you ever think that in calling for people to be de-platformed, you are in fact part of the problem?
    - vegai_ 5y ago
      > But I'm not glad you characterise me as a troll - its just not true. My comment and especially that part was over the line -- I apologize.
      - verisimi 5y ago
        Cheers :)