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Let me begin with another question: have you considered making your own arguments for why you think I'm wrong? Anti-Russia as a state? No, that I am not. I am

Let me begin with another question: have you considered making your own arguments for why you think I'm wrong? Anti-Russia as a state? No, that I am not. I am firmly anti-invasion. If Denmark decided to invade Sweden tomorrow, I would just as vociferously argue against its blatant aggression as I do Russia's. Russia's claims amount to little more than a rejection of self-determination for any state in its determined sphere of influence, which is a macrocosmic offer of, "marry me or I'll kill you". I wouldn't entertain such a person's fantasies in my real life and neither do I entertain them on a geopolitical scale.

fortnum 5y ago
Nobody will claim any military action is a good thing. But you equally cannot say this conflict just started a few weeks ago. If NATO hadn't pushed further and further (and went against what was agreed), we would have never had that issue in the first place, as Ukraine wouldn't have been turned into a pawn against Russia. This issue has been known for decades. Biden mentioned it 20 years ago already - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNgCwoaT9u4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNgCwoaT9u4 I can only highly recommend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 as well.
- emptysongglass 5y ago
  You are discussing the former satellite states of the USSR and Ukraine as if they didn't have their own right to choose. Ukraine would say it is not a pawn of anyone but is in service to its people and their desire to live free of a brutal overlord whose number one tactic in war is shelling cities (see Chechnya), which overwhelmingly kills civilians. The entire Russian war doctrine is anchored around its artillery. When more than 180,000 Russian troops massed at Ukraine's border a few weeks ago whose choice was it to invade? Putin made that choice. Trotting out the much-worn Mearsheimer video (I didn't even need to click the link to know) is of little service as the fault of this invasion is not on NATO. I have already established that in my earlier comments. Mearsheimer has perhaps served as Russia's greatest propagandist to the armchair intelligentsia of those who subscribe to a decidedly red realpolitik.
  - fortnum 5y ago
    No offence, but the bias mentioned by verisimi earlier seems to be quite obvious at this point. I don't think continuing the discussion makes much sense.
    - emptysongglass 5y ago
      Well, I am currently trying to help a Russian escape Russia for his antiwar sentiments so you really ought to be clear about which part of anti-Russian bias I am representing. Should you have arguments that don't lean on Mearsheimer or provably false promises against NATO expansion [1], I'd be happy to continue. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-...
      - fortnum 5y ago
        > escape Russia I am not sure how that disproves your bias, respectively what that is even supposed to mean. I am not aware of any travel restrictions, so there's no "escape". I am also not quite sure why you are so dismissive of Mearsheimer. But again, there will be little point in continuing the discussion.
        jaynetics 5y ago
        > I am not aware of any travel restrictions, so there's no "escape". https://zona.media/article/2022/03/02/border https://zona.media/article/2022/03/02/border
    - vegai_ 5y ago
      I bothered taking a look at verisimi's earlier comments. It's absolutely clear that he has a strong pro-Russia position, and given how his account is 6 months old, it's possible that he's here only to spread pro-Russian talking points. Continuing discussion with such people/russotrolls[0] is pointless, indeed. Too bad this site doesn't have a block user functionality. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Putins-Trolls-Frontlines-Russias-Information/dp/1632461293 https://www.amazon.com/Putins-Trolls-Frontlines-Russias-Info...
s1artibartfast 5y ago
>Russia's claims amount to little more than a rejection of self-determination for any state in its determined sphere of influence. This is absolutely correct >I wouldn't entertain such a person's fantasies in my real life and neither do I entertain them on a geopolitical scale. As in our personal lives, This is an example that law and society only exist only as long as they are more tolerable than the alternative. Even for rational actors, at some point the cost of abiding the social contract is greater than the cost to break it, and becoming an outlaw.

fortnum 5y ago

Nobody will claim any military action is a good thing. But you equally cannot say this conflict just started a few weeks ago. If NATO hadn't pushed further and further (and went against what was agreed), we would have never had that issue in the first place, as Ukraine wouldn't have been turned into a pawn against Russia. This issue has been known for decades. Biden mentioned it 20 years ago already - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNgCwoaT9u4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNgCwoaT9u4 I can only highly recommend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 as well.

emptysongglass 5y ago
You are discussing the former satellite states of the USSR and Ukraine as if they didn't have their own right to choose. Ukraine would say it is not a pawn of anyone but is in service to its people and their desire to live free of a brutal overlord whose number one tactic in war is shelling cities (see Chechnya), which overwhelmingly kills civilians. The entire Russian war doctrine is anchored around its artillery. When more than 180,000 Russian troops massed at Ukraine's border a few weeks ago whose choice was it to invade? Putin made that choice. Trotting out the much-worn Mearsheimer video (I didn't even need to click the link to know) is of little service as the fault of this invasion is not on NATO. I have already established that in my earlier comments. Mearsheimer has perhaps served as Russia's greatest propagandist to the armchair intelligentsia of those who subscribe to a decidedly red realpolitik.
- fortnum 5y ago
  No offence, but the bias mentioned by verisimi earlier seems to be quite obvious at this point. I don't think continuing the discussion makes much sense.
  - emptysongglass 5y ago
    Well, I am currently trying to help a Russian escape Russia for his antiwar sentiments so you really ought to be clear about which part of anti-Russian bias I am representing. Should you have arguments that don't lean on Mearsheimer or provably false promises against NATO expansion [1], I'd be happy to continue. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-promise-not-to-enlarge-gorbachev-says-no/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2014/11/06/did-nato-...
    - fortnum 5y ago
      > escape Russia I am not sure how that disproves your bias, respectively what that is even supposed to mean. I am not aware of any travel restrictions, so there's no "escape". I am also not quite sure why you are so dismissive of Mearsheimer. But again, there will be little point in continuing the discussion.
      - jaynetics 5y ago
        > I am not aware of any travel restrictions, so there's no "escape". https://zona.media/article/2022/03/02/border https://zona.media/article/2022/03/02/border
  - vegai_ 5y ago
    I bothered taking a look at verisimi's earlier comments. It's absolutely clear that he has a strong pro-Russia position, and given how his account is 6 months old, it's possible that he's here only to spread pro-Russian talking points. Continuing discussion with such people/russotrolls[0] is pointless, indeed. Too bad this site doesn't have a block user functionality. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Putins-Trolls-Frontlines-Russias-Information/dp/1632461293 https://www.amazon.com/Putins-Trolls-Frontlines-Russias-Info...

s1artibartfast 5y ago

>Russia's claims amount to little more than a rejection of self-determination for any state in its determined sphere of influence. This is absolutely correct >I wouldn't entertain such a person's fantasies in my real life and neither do I entertain them on a geopolitical scale. As in our personal lives, This is an example that law and society only exist only as long as they are more tolerable than the alternative. Even for rational actors, at some point the cost of abiding the social contract is greater than the cost to break it, and becoming an outlaw.