5 ms·

... and another sub-faction that thinks time-zones are also a horrible idea.

colejohnson66 5y ago
You’re never gonna convince the world to remove time zones. Switch to UTC and now the idea of the sun rising between 5-7 AMish is ruined because it would be 2 AM where I am now. Since the invention of the sundial, time zones have existed in some form or another. Programmers just have deal with it.
- eru 5y ago
  The sun doesn't rise between 5-7 AM-ish in many parts of the world. First, if you timezone is 'right', on average the sun should rise about 6 am. In winter, it rises later, in summer it rises earlier. Where I grew up in Germany the sun rose as late as 8:20 am in winter. And funny enough, the latest rise in Madrid in Spain is at 8:40 am in winter. That's because Madrid is on the 'wrong' timezone: it's in the same timezone as Germany, but much further west. (You are right however, that time zones do roughly keep noon around 12-ish. It's just that the band of variation around the world is quite a lot wider than you might imagine.)
- mcronce 5y ago
  > Switch to UTC and now the idea of the sun rising between 5-7 AMish is ruined And this idea is critically important because?
  - colejohnson66 5y ago
    It alone isn’t. But the notion of the sun rising in the mid-AM, midday being at noon, and the sun then setting in the mid-PM is literally as old as the sundial. There’s no way you’re convincing society that “no timezones” is a good thing.
myrryr 5y ago
Right, UTC all of the things!
- lxgr 5y ago
  A reasonable idea, for people living in Europe or Africa.
  - eru 5y ago
    Also works for people in New Zealand; they just use a 12-hour clock and flip AM and PM.
    - lxgr 5y ago
      And stop using the notions of „today“ and „tomorrow“? Having the date change at lunchtime would be really confusing.
      - eru 5y ago
        Maybe. Though eg the Jewish calendar changes dates at sunset as far as I can tell, and that seems to work just fine?
lxgr 5y ago
That idea has some quite surprising and arguably inconvenient consequences: https://qntm.org/abolish https://qntm.org/abolish Most notably, the concepts of "today" and "tomorrow" stop making sense!
- mcronce 5y ago
  They already don't make sense when you're trying to coordinate communication with people more than a few timezones away
  - colejohnson66 5y ago
    Which defeats one of the supposed “benefits”: “meeting at 2PM” means the same everywhere.
    - mcronce 5y ago
      "Meeting at X" means exactly what it always meant. The only difference made by removing timezones is that you don't need to adjust the time for remote dial-ins. 2PM becomes 2PM everywhere.
  - caylus 5y ago
    If we abolished time zones, it wouldn't make sense /ever/ for people in some parts of the world, even when communicating with people close to them. That's worse.
    - mcronce 5y ago
      Why wouldn't it make sense "ever" in any part of the world?
      - caylus 5y ago
        In some areas, standard workdays would span "days". So e.g. a business would need to post its hours as "M-F, 00:00 - 1:00, 17:00 - 24:00". (actually it's even worse as the last 00:00 - 1:00 is on a Saturday) Or imagine chatting with a friend at 23:00 about plans after you get off work at 1:00 the following "day". "See you tomorrow?" Or do you reserve "tomorrow" for telling someone at 8:00 that you'll get back to them when you wake up at 16:00 that same "day"? Today people only have to deal with this when communicating with people many time zones away, but now it's an issue even within a single area!

You’re never gonna convince the world to remove time zones. Switch to UTC and now the idea of the sun rising between 5-7 AMish is ruined because it would be 2 AM where I am now. Since the invention of the sundial, time zones have existed in some form or another. Programmers just have deal with it.

eru 5y ago
The sun doesn't rise between 5-7 AM-ish in many parts of the world. First, if you timezone is 'right', on average the sun should rise about 6 am. In winter, it rises later, in summer it rises earlier. Where I grew up in Germany the sun rose as late as 8:20 am in winter. And funny enough, the latest rise in Madrid in Spain is at 8:40 am in winter. That's because Madrid is on the 'wrong' timezone: it's in the same timezone as Germany, but much further west. (You are right however, that time zones do roughly keep noon around 12-ish. It's just that the band of variation around the world is quite a lot wider than you might imagine.)
mcronce 5y ago
> Switch to UTC and now the idea of the sun rising between 5-7 AMish is ruined And this idea is critically important because?
- colejohnson66 5y ago
  It alone isn’t. But the notion of the sun rising in the mid-AM, midday being at noon, and the sun then setting in the mid-PM is literally as old as the sundial. There’s no way you’re convincing society that “no timezones” is a good thing.

myrryr 5y ago

Right, UTC all of the things!

lxgr 5y ago
A reasonable idea, for people living in Europe or Africa.
- eru 5y ago
  Also works for people in New Zealand; they just use a 12-hour clock and flip AM and PM.
  - lxgr 5y ago
    And stop using the notions of „today“ and „tomorrow“? Having the date change at lunchtime would be really confusing.
    - eru 5y ago
      Maybe. Though eg the Jewish calendar changes dates at sunset as far as I can tell, and that seems to work just fine?

lxgr 5y ago

That idea has some quite surprising and arguably inconvenient consequences: https://qntm.org/abolish https://qntm.org/abolish Most notably, the concepts of "today" and "tomorrow" stop making sense!

mcronce 5y ago
They already don't make sense when you're trying to coordinate communication with people more than a few timezones away
- colejohnson66 5y ago
  Which defeats one of the supposed “benefits”: “meeting at 2PM” means the same everywhere.
  - mcronce 5y ago
    "Meeting at X" means exactly what it always meant. The only difference made by removing timezones is that you don't need to adjust the time for remote dial-ins. 2PM becomes 2PM everywhere.
- caylus 5y ago
  If we abolished time zones, it wouldn't make sense /ever/ for people in some parts of the world, even when communicating with people close to them. That's worse.
  - mcronce 5y ago
    Why wouldn't it make sense "ever" in any part of the world?
    - caylus 5y ago
      In some areas, standard workdays would span "days". So e.g. a business would need to post its hours as "M-F, 00:00 - 1:00, 17:00 - 24:00". (actually it's even worse as the last 00:00 - 1:00 is on a Saturday) Or imagine chatting with a friend at 23:00 about plans after you get off work at 1:00 the following "day". "See you tomorrow?" Or do you reserve "tomorrow" for telling someone at 8:00 that you'll get back to them when you wake up at 16:00 that same "day"? Today people only have to deal with this when communicating with people many time zones away, but now it's an issue even within a single area!