5 ms·

No, the sun rises and sets when it rises and sets. All this means is that at noon the clock says 1:00pm. It's still noon. People are so disconnected from the w

No, the sun rises and sets when it rises and sets. All this means is that at noon the clock says 1:00pm. It's still noon. People are so disconnected from the world that their abstractions of it become more real to them than actual reality. I don't think it is a good thing. Why not just make daylight savings time go away and do things "an hour earlier"? You'd literally be waking up at the same exact time, just that the clock will say 6 instead of 7 or whatever. Are we really so far gone as a society that we will go to such great lengths to fool our brains? It's madness.

screye 5y ago
forgive my meme like reaction but, Bruh....
cush 5y ago
You know what they mean…
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
> People are so disconnected from the world that their abstractions of it become more real to them than actual reality. Because my job starts at 9 am regardless of the position of the sun.
- reificator 5y ago
  Changing your working hours means a talk with your boss and maybe HR. If we didn’t have DST maybe it would be a box you check when you get hired. We spend so much on engineering systems that handle DST changes, there’s an increase in sleep deprived auto accidents, people die from heart attacks… All to avoid individuals asking for different hours at work? Sorry, “changing” time twice a year is not a reasonable substitute for scheduling work appropriately depending on the season.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - watwut 5y ago
    That is not true for wast majority of jobs where boss sets time ... and pretty often have reason for it. And schools won't adjust schedule just for you personally. Nor clubs nor churches and even friends when they do party they set time.
    - reificator 5y ago
      They already change schedules though, we just launder it through the time “change” despite clear evidence of costs in both productivity and literal human life.
      - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
        > They already change schedules though Yes, because the rest of society also changes their schedules, in sync. Most people don't have the ability to unilaterally change when they work irrespective of everyone else. If they did, switching between DST and standard time wouldn't matter either—just tell your boss you'll be coming into work an hour "later" in the summer.
    - grogenaut 5y ago
      Clubs and churches will be based on when people can most likely make it. I think those things will sort themselves out. They already accomodate for things like weather, light, etc.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - grogenaut 5y ago
    I'm betting for certain types of jobs schedules are not flexible, and for other types of jobs it doesn't matter. For my job, I skipped an important meeting this morning because they scheduled it at 8am and I didn't want to get up that early. Not sure anyone cared.
    - reificator 5y ago
      Their schedules are clearly flexible because they’re already changing them twice a year under the current system.
      - ironmagma 5y ago
        No, they're not. They keep the time the same. If they kept the sunlight percentage the same instead, they'd be doing those meetings at a different time each month, as the sunrise and sunset change throughout the year.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  So then what's the point of any of this? If you live your life based on what the clock says, why change what the clock says in relation to the position of the sun at all?
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    The last few weeks before the DST switch in the fall are hell for me every year. The sun doesn't rise in earnest until ~7:30, but my job starts at the same time, so I always wake up groggy and feeling terrible. It usually lasts the whole day. Now I'm going to have that for three months, while the sun rises even later! I'm not in favor of switching clocks, but I'd rather switch than have permanent DST. This change caught me out of nowhere and I'm already dreading it, I'm going to be miserable all winter!
    - jedberg 5y ago
      Maybe this will finally be the push that gets companies to change their start and end times in winter.
      - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
        Won't this have all the same problems of the current DST switch? During the week of the schedule change, employees will be less productive and more susceptible to health problems. The inherent problem is that we're switching the time by a full hour all at once. We could make the change more gradually, perhaps by a few minutes each week—but nobody wants to coordinate that!
        jedberg 5y ago
        If they did it all at once. But it would be totally reasonable for the company to say shift it 15 or 30 minutes a week or make other concessions like having everyone switch on different days based on a shift schedule or whatever. They could also tie it to a vacation where people tend to shift schedules anyway. Like “new hours after the new year!”
johnfn 5y ago
> People are so disconnected from the world that their abstractions of it become more real to them than actual reality. I don't think it is a good thing. Goodness. The guy is asking a simple question. People shouldn't have to frame up everything from axiomatic principles before asking for some extremely basic information.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  Yeah I misunderstood the question as a statement before responding. still, what I said is pertinent to the conversation so I left it as is. That said, I do think decisions should be made based on axiomatic principles.
- germandiago 5y ago
  OTOH, I find informative to know these little things and understand how things work below the surface :)
- replygirl 5y ago
  before anyone asks me what time is they better check their priors
necovek 5y ago
Your argument is an argument against any time zones at all. It could equally apply to abolishing timezones and switching to UTC time everywhere (or maybe fractional Julian Day/JD numbers). > People are so disconnected from the world that their abstractions of it become more real to them than actual reality. I don't think it is a good thing. But then you do the same thing. :D There is never a jump of 1h: the "daylight" time changes gradually, so if you want to move 1h one way in 182 days, you only need to note how today, as you woke up at the same time as yesterday, it's now 7 - 1h/182... And it will be 7-2h/182 the day after, and... That's very confusing. This is not an argument for DST, but an argument against any "artificial" adjustment (both DST and the one you propose where you wake up at the "same time" but it's suddenly 1h of a difference in wall clock time?). Basically, it's easy enough for a region to decide on the most suitable timezone (eg. with or without DST of today, or even something entirely different), and keep that on for the entire year. If you end up waking up at night for work and that bothers you, make sure to affect that regional decision when it's being made. If, like me, you care more about having daylight hours after work is done, then vote the other way. Ideally, find work that will have flexible start times (this is generally hardest for institutions dealing with plenty of people like schools and government administration).
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  You're misunderstanding my argument. "Noon" is when the sun is midway through its daylight cycle. We call that "12:00(pm)" for the sake of measurement. Switching to UTC worldwide is just as bad as switching to DST, except at meridian. Time does not change naturally; noon is noon is noon is noon. I'm not proposing what you think I'm proposing. I'm saying the only sane solution to this is permanent standard time, which is what I think you want too, and that permanent daylight time is not more sane than switching twice a year.
  - badwolf 5y ago
    There are still demarcations where we arbitrarily decide to switch over an hour. Seasons change, people live at different latitudes. Noon is not always "noon"
  - 5y ago
dylan604 5y ago
Future historians will write tomes about the efforts early man went through of adjusting the time (as if they had the power) twice a year. Time is an abstract thing we have let rule us. I love the stories of indigenious tribes where they worked on a task until it was completed, not because some arbitrary shadow on a stick. When it was light, you worked. When it's dark, you don't work. Of course, we have electricity now so we've screwed ourselves with an easy time of day schedule.
- lmm 5y ago
  You might enjoy https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/11/03/the-witching-hour/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/11/03/the-witching-hour/
  - dylan604 5y ago
    Wow, a website that gives HN a run for its money on "how small can we make a font?" type of styling. Although your linked site actually has style. <ducks> Edit: otherwise, yes, this is kind of the style I was thinking. However, I was hoping less of a "religious" difference and more of an enlightened "idiots did that?" kind of thing.
- prometheus76 5y ago
  It's also much easier to coordinate activities with others with clocks, especially if those other people live in other time zones. "Meet me at sunrise" is a wide window.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    Except when part of the world undergoes a change in the clocks weeks before other parts of the world does, so now the world has to deal with the same change twice. So this makes it 4 times a year the world has to deal with the confusion, not just twice. Hell, I'm only familiar with US/UK, so maybe it's even more???
electrondood 5y ago
> People are so disconnected from the world that their abstractions of it become more real to them than actual reality. My friend, this is how all of human language works. "Ceci n'est pas une pipe."

screye 5y ago

forgive my meme like reaction but, Bruh....

cush 5y ago

You know what they mean…

Wowfunhappy 5y ago

> People are so disconnected from the world that their abstractions of it become more real to them than actual reality. Because my job starts at 9 am regardless of the position of the sun.

reificator 5y ago
Changing your working hours means a talk with your boss and maybe HR. If we didn’t have DST maybe it would be a box you check when you get hired. We spend so much on engineering systems that handle DST changes, there’s an increase in sleep deprived auto accidents, people die from heart attacks… All to avoid individuals asking for different hours at work? Sorry, “changing” time twice a year is not a reasonable substitute for scheduling work appropriately depending on the season.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- watwut 5y ago
  That is not true for wast majority of jobs where boss sets time ... and pretty often have reason for it. And schools won't adjust schedule just for you personally. Nor clubs nor churches and even friends when they do party they set time.
  - reificator 5y ago
    They already change schedules though, we just launder it through the time “change” despite clear evidence of costs in both productivity and literal human life.
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
      > They already change schedules though Yes, because the rest of society also changes their schedules, in sync. Most people don't have the ability to unilaterally change when they work irrespective of everyone else. If they did, switching between DST and standard time wouldn't matter either—just tell your boss you'll be coming into work an hour "later" in the summer.
  - grogenaut 5y ago
    Clubs and churches will be based on when people can most likely make it. I think those things will sort themselves out. They already accomodate for things like weather, light, etc.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- grogenaut 5y ago
  I'm betting for certain types of jobs schedules are not flexible, and for other types of jobs it doesn't matter. For my job, I skipped an important meeting this morning because they scheduled it at 8am and I didn't want to get up that early. Not sure anyone cared.
  - reificator 5y ago
    Their schedules are clearly flexible because they’re already changing them twice a year under the current system.
    - ironmagma 5y ago
      No, they're not. They keep the time the same. If they kept the sunlight percentage the same instead, they'd be doing those meetings at a different time each month, as the sunrise and sunset change throughout the year.
betwixthewires 5y ago
So then what's the point of any of this? If you live your life based on what the clock says, why change what the clock says in relation to the position of the sun at all?
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  The last few weeks before the DST switch in the fall are hell for me every year. The sun doesn't rise in earnest until ~7:30, but my job starts at the same time, so I always wake up groggy and feeling terrible. It usually lasts the whole day. Now I'm going to have that for three months, while the sun rises even later! I'm not in favor of switching clocks, but I'd rather switch than have permanent DST. This change caught me out of nowhere and I'm already dreading it, I'm going to be miserable all winter!
  - jedberg 5y ago
    Maybe this will finally be the push that gets companies to change their start and end times in winter.
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
      Won't this have all the same problems of the current DST switch? During the week of the schedule change, employees will be less productive and more susceptible to health problems. The inherent problem is that we're switching the time by a full hour all at once. We could make the change more gradually, perhaps by a few minutes each week—but nobody wants to coordinate that!
      - jedberg 5y ago
        If they did it all at once. But it would be totally reasonable for the company to say shift it 15 or 30 minutes a week or make other concessions like having everyone switch on different days based on a shift schedule or whatever. They could also tie it to a vacation where people tend to shift schedules anyway. Like “new hours after the new year!”

johnfn 5y ago

> People are so disconnected from the world that their abstractions of it become more real to them than actual reality. I don't think it is a good thing. Goodness. The guy is asking a simple question. People shouldn't have to frame up everything from axiomatic principles before asking for some extremely basic information.

betwixthewires 5y ago
Yeah I misunderstood the question as a statement before responding. still, what I said is pertinent to the conversation so I left it as is. That said, I do think decisions should be made based on axiomatic principles.
germandiago 5y ago
OTOH, I find informative to know these little things and understand how things work below the surface :)
replygirl 5y ago
before anyone asks me what time is they better check their priors

necovek 5y ago

Your argument is an argument against any time zones at all. It could equally apply to abolishing timezones and switching to UTC time everywhere (or maybe fractional Julian Day/JD numbers). > People are so disconnected from the world that their abstractions of it become more real to them than actual reality. I don't think it is a good thing. But then you do the same thing. :D There is never a jump of 1h: the "daylight" time changes gradually, so if you want to move 1h one way in 182 days, you only need to note how today, as you woke up at the same time as yesterday, it's now 7 - 1h/182... And it will be 7-2h/182 the day after, and... That's very confusing. This is not an argument for DST, but an argument against any "artificial" adjustment (both DST and the one you propose where you wake up at the "same time" but it's suddenly 1h of a difference in wall clock time?). Basically, it's easy enough for a region to decide on the most suitable timezone (eg. with or without DST of today, or even something entirely different), and keep that on for the entire year. If you end up waking up at night for work and that bothers you, make sure to affect that regional decision when it's being made. If, like me, you care more about having daylight hours after work is done, then vote the other way. Ideally, find work that will have flexible start times (this is generally hardest for institutions dealing with plenty of people like schools and government administration).

betwixthewires 5y ago
You're misunderstanding my argument. "Noon" is when the sun is midway through its daylight cycle. We call that "12:00(pm)" for the sake of measurement. Switching to UTC worldwide is just as bad as switching to DST, except at meridian. Time does not change naturally; noon is noon is noon is noon. I'm not proposing what you think I'm proposing. I'm saying the only sane solution to this is permanent standard time, which is what I think you want too, and that permanent daylight time is not more sane than switching twice a year.
- badwolf 5y ago
  There are still demarcations where we arbitrarily decide to switch over an hour. Seasons change, people live at different latitudes. Noon is not always "noon"
- 5y ago

dylan604 5y ago

Future historians will write tomes about the efforts early man went through of adjusting the time (as if they had the power) twice a year. Time is an abstract thing we have let rule us. I love the stories of indigenious tribes where they worked on a task until it was completed, not because some arbitrary shadow on a stick. When it was light, you worked. When it's dark, you don't work. Of course, we have electricity now so we've screwed ourselves with an easy time of day schedule.

lmm 5y ago
You might enjoy https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/11/03/the-witching-hour/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/11/03/the-witching-hour/
- dylan604 5y ago
  Wow, a website that gives HN a run for its money on "how small can we make a font?" type of styling. Although your linked site actually has style. <ducks> Edit: otherwise, yes, this is kind of the style I was thinking. However, I was hoping less of a "religious" difference and more of an enlightened "idiots did that?" kind of thing.
prometheus76 5y ago
It's also much easier to coordinate activities with others with clocks, especially if those other people live in other time zones. "Meet me at sunrise" is a wide window.
- dylan604 5y ago
  Except when part of the world undergoes a change in the clocks weeks before other parts of the world does, so now the world has to deal with the same change twice. So this makes it 4 times a year the world has to deal with the confusion, not just twice. Hell, I'm only familiar with US/UK, so maybe it's even more???

electrondood 5y ago

> People are so disconnected from the world that their abstractions of it become more real to them than actual reality. My friend, this is how all of human language works. "Ceci n'est pas une pipe."