6 ms·
Can making employers share pay in job postings help fix the gender pay gap?
- e4e78a06 5y agoIronic they leave out Asian men in the graph at the top. I guess those numbers wouldn't fit their "America is racist" trope. Other than that though, standardizing pay will balance the playing field towards smaller companies. Bigger companies will face pressure to standardize pay packages per level (see: Coinbase, Uber) which limits their ability to reward top performers. Smaller companies won't have that same pressure. The pay gap is largely a function of how much each gender negotiates on average and if you take away negotiating then people will just leave to places where they're paid what they're worth.
- kube-system 5y agoThe largest part of the pay gap is not negotiation, it's occupational segregation. And for the most part, sharing salaries publicly won't fix this at all. It's too late by the time everyone has chosen a career. To fix this gap, we really need to change how we all think about gender roles from birth.
- gotoeleven 5y agoWhats to fix? The evidence shows that women and men choose different things. There is less STEM participation by women in countries that are more gender-egalitarian. Smart women who are capable of STEM careers largely choose different careers, if they can. Whats wrong with that? Doesn't assuming that there is something to "fix" here imply that women are broken? It's already clear that removing the barriers to enter these fields doesn't make them substantially more attractive to women, so whats left to "fix"?
- kube-system 5y agoThere is more to the equation than STEM vs non-STEM jobs. > removing the barriers to enter these fields doesn't make them substantially more attractive to women Any why is that the case? There are a lot of assumptions about the types of jobs that men/women should be doing, and there are also a lot of cultural assumptions about those job positions themselves and what they expect of their workers. There are also still many jobs which are not receptive to one gender or the other, either by their cultures or the cultures of their customers. This is something that should be fixed, even if it doesn't impact the choices that people make, although we do know that cultural expectations have a huge impact on choice. We also don't only have cultural expectations about jobs women should have. We also have expectations about jobs men have. For example, many cultures expect men to make personal sacrifices in order to earn more money. Gender expectations usually affect both genders at the same time, rarely one in isolation.
- newsclues 5y agoHow does that work?
- kube-system 5y agoI'm not sure what part of my comment you're referring to.
- newsclues 5y ago“To fix this gap, we really need to change how we all think about gender roles from birth.“ How are you going to correct humanities concepts of gender that have existed for a long time?
- kube-system 5y agoThe same way we've made any other social progress. By discussing it.
- newsclues 5y agoProblem solving requires more than discussion.
- kube-system 5y agoSometimes. But if it does, it starts there.
- jimbob45 5y agoSo instead of pushing girls and boys to choose jobs based on their gender we should...push girls and boys to choose different jobs based on their gender? It seems like you're fighting fire with fire here.
- kube-system 5y ago> push girls and boys to choose different jobs based on their gender? Nowhere did I suggest as much. I am simply suggesting that the gender roles we ascribe to children early on leave permanent impressions upon what they choose, and maybe more importantly, what others expect of them.
- smegsicle 5y agoby insisting on that suggestion, you are implying that this is harmful, that women choose incorrectly, and that it be corrected
- kube-system 5y agoNo, women (and men) are not “incorrect” for having been misguided by their upbringing. Children aren’t to blame for the way they were raised, they have no choice in the matter. Those who influenced them in that way are the ones who are incorrect.
- smegsicle 5y agoby what evidence or intuition are you inferring misguidance?
- kube-system 5y agoWe have plenty of relevant examples of scenarios where, given the exact same set of circumstances, men and women would be treated differently for exercising free will in defiance of gender norms. There are still jobs, even in the most progressive parts of the world, where people are given different levels of respect just because of their gender.
- ryan93 5y agoIll believe it when there is a massive push for women to go into dangerous jobs.
- kube-system 5y agoShouldn't we be equally concerned about men or women being hurt at work? The fact that most places, culturally, are not, is exactly the kind of stuff I'm referring to.
- e4e78a06 5y agoThe US and Europe have great safety regulations for workers. It turns out given the choice women would rather not live in the middle of nowhere in -40C weather getting soaked by crude oil and mud every day, even if it pays six figures. Why do men do it? Because there's a societal expectation that they provide for the family as a breadwinner.
- kube-system 5y agoExactly. Just because we have made great progress with blatant sexism over the past 50 years doesn’t mean that we’re treating sexes equally. This is one of the reasons why a wage gap due to “choice” isn’t as much of a “choice” as many write it off as. We raise children with an expectation that women need to be “protected” from certain jobs (and other expectations), then after two decades of that conditioning, we ask them to make a “choice”. Of course those “choices” end up being biased. But they didn’t fully choose, they were raised to believe certain things about themselves and their surroundings.
- ryan93 5y agoHow are peoples choices ever gonna be unbiased? Beyond absurd to claim choices are only unbiased if men and women choose careers in equal proportion.
- kube-system 5y ago
- jokethrowaway 5y agoThis has nothing to do with gender and the gender pay gap doesn't have any scientific basis whatsoever. There are simply way too many variables. We can extrapolate what's going to happen. People who are bad at negotiating will get more money, people who are good at negotiating will get less and will be pushed more to contracting / entrepreneurship.
- brightball 5y agoNope. Because promotions, retention raises and direct recruiting to unposted jobs via networking will still happen.
- laurent92 5y agoIt happens because we want them to happen. A barrel of legal problems bound to happen will always meet lesser market value than a barrel of people who tend to work until they die at their desk. As long as presumption of innocence doesn’t make its way, some people are just pending lawsuits on legs.
- ryan93 5y agoIf a manager knows who they want to hire before the job posting goes up how will you know?
- jamietanna 5y agoYes! But until its a requirement, I'm hoping more folks will share their salary privately, but also publicly like me https://www.jvt.me/salary/ https://www.jvt.me/salary/
- mrintellectual 5y agoIt seriously irritates me when these articles like these conveniently ignore a certain portion of the population. Where's non-Latina white women in the bar chart? I did some rough-and-dirty calculations based on US census data (https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/RHI725219 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/RHI725219) and the 83-cent statistic in the article. Turns out non-Latina white women actually earn _more_: about $1.03 for every $1.00 earned by non-Latino white men. A lack of transparency will do more to hurt gender and racial equality in the long run. It's better to leave the statistic in and explain why the numbers are as they are instead of turning a blind eye.
- akavi 5y agoDoes your calculation try to recreate the 0.83 $ statistic by assuming the proportion of the workforce of a given (gender, race) is the same as the population as a whole? Because that's not necessarily a valid assumption.
- oliv__ 5y agoLatino is considered white now?
- kube-system 5y agoMany latinos have white skin.
- bobthepanda 5y agothere are white Latinos. they would've been descendants of Spanish or Portuguese colonizers who didn't intermarry much or at all. Latino is an ethnicity, white is a race, at least according to the Census. Louis CK, Snooki, Vanna White, Charlie Sheen, Nicole Richie, and Ryan Lochte are all considered white, but have Latino ancestry.
- naoqj 5y agoIt's like when they say that whites dominate managerial positions but they conveniently conflate Jews with whites.
- LatteLazy 5y agoJob postings is weak. We should man up and make all salaries (including bonuses, commissions, benefits and similar) public. And it's not about gender or race (or other) politics. It's about making a market efficient and fair. That's why no one would shop at a place where nothing had a price label. Norway does this. And you can basically do it for all sorts of state employees (teachers with X degree and Y years experience get Y0,000 ±5%)
- e4e78a06 5y ago> teachers with X degree and Y years experience get Y0,000 ±5% That would never work in tech. And the higher paying firm you go to, the less it works. High performers in FAANG can have refresher and bonus multipliers of 2.5x the base performance rating. In HFT high performers total comp can be double or triple low performers' TC. I would think it shouldn't work for teachers either. In the US there is a marked difference in teacher compensation between good districts and bad districts and you see the quality difference in the students that come out of those schools.
- oh_sigh 5y agoDoes the pay gap even exist for same-level positions? I always thought it was basically comparing (sum male earnings)/(total males) to (sum female earnings)/(total females). If the pay gap actually existed for same level positions, and was the 83c per dollar as is commonly quoted, why wouldn't there be all-female firms, paying their employees say 90 cents on the dollar, such that their overall payroll costs are much lower for the same quality work as a workplace with mostly males. Shouldn't that company be able to outcompete other companies? If group A is more willing than group B to sacrifice their health and relationships to improve their value at an office, how can groups A and B ever be equally represented beyond entry level positions?
- jeffreyrogers 5y agoThe pay gap is much smaller if you compare identical jobs like you're suggesting.
- laurent92 5y agoI post jobs, but we always adapt the offer depending on the person’s skills. The very idea that a job has a specific salary is disjoint from ground reality. The ideal that everyone’s skills can be ranked using material criteria is an oversimplification of society.
- eric4smith 5y agoThere is no gender pay gap. It's tiring (and amazing) to see people still hang on to that thoroughly debunked position in 2022. It's still comparing the salary of a CEO to a kindergarten teacher.
- fungiblecog 5y agoJust make everyone’s pay public domain. Then let market forces take effect. “privacy” just helps companies have all the leverage in negotiations so that those who are less assertive (esp women and minorities) get the worst deal.