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That's a fair perspective, and one I've previously held. However my view of social attitudes is that they almost always follow a bell curve: exposure to extrem

by cwkoss 5y ago

That's a fair perspective, and one I've previously held. However my view of social attitudes is that they almost always follow a bell curve: exposure to extreme positions are how moderates reflect on and revise the status quo. The long tail must move before the centroid can shift. 10% of the population needs to call for the execution of all torturers in the CIA before the zeitgeist's illusion of justice painted over black ops can be dismantled. If radicals only advocated for "CIA is bad and needs to be reigned in" that doesn't create enough cognitive dissonance for the general public to reflect on their attitudes and actually effect change. Radicals advocating for the superlative solution create cover for moderates to take compromise action. I think it would be good for society if CIA torturers would be executed, but I'd be shocked if the moderate politicians in power had the courage to actually do so.

sneak 5y ago
I don't think violence actually works to solve the problem, however. In addition to being barbaric, it also has the tiny problem of being ineffective. You can't execute an ideology, you have to out-meme it. The concept of an above-the-law class has a long and beloved history because us social human beings seem to really love (and require!) having a very clear and well-defined social hierarchy within which one can orient oneself. Most of us would even prefer clarity about the hierarchy and where one resides within it to elevated position within a murkier hierarchy. You can't get rid of a monarch just by stripping them of their power and installing a parliament; the poor will keep polishing their crowns and spoons for free until the cows come home. You literally have to construct a better meme to replace the fundamental concept. You'll have to out-James Bond James Bond (and Batman and Superman and Jack Bauer and Jason Bourne and friends). I used to think that the US constitution was an explicitly fraudulent meme promoted by the ruling class (I think Washington was the largest landowner in the colonies?) to usurp, and maybe it was, but this Lincoln quote made me think a little more deeply about it: > As a nation, we began by declaring that 'all men are created equal.' We now practically read it 'all men are created equal, except negroes.' When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy. Even Lincoln pointed out we were full of shit. I suppose he's right that it's better to fake it 'till you make it than to not give a shit at all.
- cwkoss 5y ago
  I don't think it is the violence itself that solves the problem. I think it is the broader public realizing that "the CIA is engaging in acts so egregious my countrymen think execution is morally justified" that solves the problem, by forcing them to look for more moderate solutions and prioritize their implementation. I think 'never advocate for violence, even against more-violent greater evils' is a flawed rule because it leads to the compromise result landed closer to in favor of evil. We need the radical voices to drag the center towards effective action. (And torture is so superlatively evil that I have no moral qualms advocating for the humane execution of those who can be proven to have engaged in or ordered it).
  - sneak 5y ago
    I don't think you persuade the segment of the population that thinks that execution is morally unjustifiable by advocating for morally justified execution, but I'm no sociologist.
    - cwkoss 5y ago
      That's fair, I think other readers watching us debate whether CIA torture is evil enough that state execution is justified probably has a similar effect to my goals with advocating for it in public discussion... so thanks! Hopefully we've shifted a few minds towards "something needs to be done".

by cwkoss 5y ago

sneak 5y ago

I don't think violence actually works to solve the problem, however. In addition to being barbaric, it also has the tiny problem of being ineffective. You can't execute an ideology, you have to out-meme it. The concept of an above-the-law class has a long and beloved history because us social human beings seem to really love (and require!) having a very clear and well-defined social hierarchy within which one can orient oneself. Most of us would even prefer clarity about the hierarchy and where one resides within it to elevated position within a murkier hierarchy. You can't get rid of a monarch just by stripping them of their power and installing a parliament; the poor will keep polishing their crowns and spoons for free until the cows come home. You literally have to construct a better meme to replace the fundamental concept. You'll have to out-James Bond James Bond (and Batman and Superman and Jack Bauer and Jason Bourne and friends). I used to think that the US constitution was an explicitly fraudulent meme promoted by the ruling class (I think Washington was the largest landowner in the colonies?) to usurp, and maybe it was, but this Lincoln quote made me think a little more deeply about it: > As a nation, we began by declaring that 'all men are created equal.' We now practically read it 'all men are created equal, except negroes.' When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read 'all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty – to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy. Even Lincoln pointed out we were full of shit. I suppose he's right that it's better to fake it 'till you make it than to not give a shit at all.

cwkoss 5y ago
I don't think it is the violence itself that solves the problem. I think it is the broader public realizing that "the CIA is engaging in acts so egregious my countrymen think execution is morally justified" that solves the problem, by forcing them to look for more moderate solutions and prioritize their implementation. I think 'never advocate for violence, even against more-violent greater evils' is a flawed rule because it leads to the compromise result landed closer to in favor of evil. We need the radical voices to drag the center towards effective action. (And torture is so superlatively evil that I have no moral qualms advocating for the humane execution of those who can be proven to have engaged in or ordered it).
- sneak 5y ago
  I don't think you persuade the segment of the population that thinks that execution is morally unjustifiable by advocating for morally justified execution, but I'm no sociologist.
  - cwkoss 5y ago
    That's fair, I think other readers watching us debate whether CIA torture is evil enough that state execution is justified probably has a similar effect to my goals with advocating for it in public discussion... so thanks! Hopefully we've shifted a few minds towards "something needs to be done".