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Watching Americans freak out about post-8AM sunrises is surreal to me. The sun doesn't rise until 8:45 during the darkest times of the year here in the Netherla

Watching Americans freak out about post-8AM sunrises is surreal to me. The sun doesn't rise until 8:45 during the darkest times of the year here in the Netherlands and its really not much of an issue. Whether standard time or summer time is the better choice here is something I hold no opinion on, but the sheer hysteria some people here express is very overblown.

CyanBird 5y ago
It will be funny to see what happens with Alaska, they might have just forgotten about the state Same thing happened in Chile a while back, the entire country was left on "summer time" which then meant that the southern tip of Chile had very, very little sun during the winter during the mornings, the "proper day time" was notoriously "shifted"
- ghaff 5y ago
  I remember a guide on a trip a number of years back telling that she rather liked the northern latitude (Alaska). In winter you're screwed anyway and in summer you have more light than you know what to do with. I'm sure an hour shift doesn't make things much different. Most of the people arguing are arguing around states where there is sort of enough light most of the year but some people like it earlier and some later.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  It's odd that most places seem very used to longitudinal time zones, but no one seems to be suggesting latitudinal time zones.
- henrikschroder 5y ago
  When you're as far north as Alaska, daylight savings stops making sense, because the difference in daylight hours over the year is huge. At Anchorage's latitude, two weeks after changing back to standard time, sunrise is back at the same time it was before the change, and mornings will get a lot darker until you reach midwinter. In California, the effect of the change is noticeable, because the difference in daylight hours is small over the year, so people who have only ever lived in California or similar are the ones complaining about "having to go to school in the dark" as if that was some weird anomaly or tragedy.
  - manmal 5y ago
    There’s a growing body of research on the circadian clock, and, yes, going to school in the dark could turn out to be a tragedy eventually.
    - henrikschroder 5y ago
      What you're saying is completely irrelevant for people living closer to and above the arctic circle, because Daylight Savings does nothing at those latitudes anyway.
      - manmal 5y ago
        I agree. Most of the world's population don't live there though.
zozbot234 5y ago
That just means that the problem gets worse as the latitude gets farther away from the equator. It may be pretty unavoidable in such places, but why make it pointlessly worse?
- SubiculumCode 5y ago
  Maybe timezones should be based on longitude and DST should be based on latitude?
metafunctor 5y ago
Wasn't there a study or two that living on the western edge of a time zone poses higher health risks, presumably because people have to get up before sunrise to get to work. This why I, personally, would prefer standard time over DST. I really hate early mornings, and DST causes all mornings to be one hour earlier. EDIT: Googled a quick link about this: https://www.sciencealert.com/a-neurologist-explains-why-daylight-saving-time-is-terrible-for-our-health https://www.sciencealert.com/a-neurologist-explains-why-dayl...
- stult 5y ago
  Yeah, this is what makes me mad about this debate. Permanent DST proponents talk about how they like having daylight at the end of the day after work. Well, weigh that mild preference against the very real physiological harm it causes. They want to enjoy their afternoons. I want to work a normal 9-5 job without getting heart disease because of the stress of waking up before sunrise eight months out of the year.
  - stormbrew 5y ago
    That's funny, I'd also like to avoid the stress of having the sun rise at 2-3am in the summer. It's almost as if there's no right answer here and the current status quo just makes everyone unhappy and unhealthy.
    - stult 5y ago
      The earliest that sunrise happens in the continental US is around 5AM during DST, so the earliest it would go is 4AM. That is in the extreme north of the country (excluding Alaska, which I'd say is not worth including in the conversation given its unique circumstances), on the eastern edges of time zones. So I don't know what you're talking about. If you read the article linked above, it specifically points out that there are measurable, concrete negative health effects from DST but not from standard time. So no, the sun rising early doesn't really stress you out the same way getting up before sunrise does. Not at all.
      - 5y ago
collegeburner 5y ago
I guess you're used to it. Making that change for people who were born and raised in early morning sun will probably not be good for them.
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  I moved from Indiana to Norway. You just get used to it and it isnt a big deal (sunrise is closer to 10am in December, with sunset around 2 or 2:30pm). Folks with winter depression sometimes struggle more here than they did in Indiana, but the doctors are prepared for this.
  - collegeburner 5y ago
    > the doctors are prepared for this. I don't think putting people on antidepressants is a good answer, either. Those are meant to be used for about a year to get people back to normal.
    - stormbrew 5y ago
      It's far more likely they're referring to vitamin D supplements and SAD lamps than antidepressants, though I'm sure antidepressants are used when other things don't work.
    - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
      Well, then don't take them. I'm pretty sure you aren't responsible for other folks' medical care, though, and that's between them and their doctor. It doesn't matter how you think they should be used if you aren't a professional treating folks - especially considering that not all mental illnesses resolve within a year or at all.
      - collegeburner 5y ago
  - jgwil2 5y ago
op00to 5y ago
I think it's not so much post 8am sunrises as pairing it up with pre 5pm sunsets that drive people insane.
- contravariant 5y ago
  Well that's winter for ya. Changing the clock isn't going to create more hours of sunlight (except arguably if you switch to DST at noon and back to winter time at midnight).
anikan_vader 5y ago
Not really a fair comparison, given that the Netherlands's latitude would put it in the Hudson Bay were it to be in North America. There are no major North American cities as far north as Amsterdam besides Anchorage.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- stygiansonic 5y ago
  Edmonton, AB is at a higher latitude than Amsterdam and has a larger population. Calgary’s latitude is similar and also has a larger population than Amsterdam.
  - anikan_vader 5y ago
    Guess I definitely should have limited the scope of my claim to America, thanks for the correction!
almog 5y ago
It's worth mentioning a satirical essay Benjamin Franklin wrote when he stayed in Paris as part of a diplomatic mission in which he basically chastises the citizens of Paris for not waking up with the sun. http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/franklin3.html http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/franklin3.html Here is a quote of how he suggest to change their lazy manners: "Every morning, as soon as the sun rises, let all the bells in every church be set ringing; and if that is not sufficient?, let cannon be fired in every street, to wake the sluggards effectually, and make them open their eyes to see their true interest." To me it bears so much resemblance to people's imminent fear of having a late sunrise.
conductr 5y ago
It's mostly because US is a big place (lng/lat diversity) and folks are rather mobile within it's borders. So, it becomes common to hear stories of the Floridian that moved to Seattle and how depressing it is.
- kitten_mittens_ 5y ago
  Having lived in both Hamburg (55deg lat) and Seattle (46), I can say that northwest Europe daylight hours are _brutal_ in the winter. The first winter I was in Hamburg, I think we got 10 hours of sun all of December.
  - dathinab 5y ago
    Is Hamburg also permanently clouded in Winter like Berlin? (In Berlin we often have a non-stop gray sky pretty often from somewhere in December to "mid" or so February with just a few days exceptions, especially January is super painful. I honestly would prefer shorter colder but clear-skyed days with snow).
    - kitten_mittens_ 5y ago
      Pretty much. It'd get below freezing some days when it was clear and then snow. But that only happened a handful of times. I think Berlin is probably colder than Hamburg. Most of the Fall/Spring was 8C and raining in Hamburg.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  I can't imagine that large latitudinal moves are common enough to be a notable driver of public opinion in favor of nationwide daylight saving time.
  - tooltower 5y ago
    But they are the loudest opinion. It's a lot like how people are more likely to write an online review if they have had a negative experience.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
The subset of Americans in question doesn't have much in the way of big problems hence why this is getting a "the sky is falling" response rather than a "ok, whatever" response.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  Some people will always try to downplay other people's success or misfortune then they stereotype them into a category that isn't themselves but it turns out to represent their unspoken views.
deleted 5y ago
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kokx 5y ago
I'm from the Netherlands as well, and I'm very scared of the talks of permanent DST over here. Which means that the sun would rise at 9:45 if we permanently switch to DST. Our country would be better suited at UTC, instead of UTC+1. Keeping it permanently at UTC+2 would be a special form of hell for me.

CyanBird 5y ago

It will be funny to see what happens with Alaska, they might have just forgotten about the state Same thing happened in Chile a while back, the entire country was left on "summer time" which then meant that the southern tip of Chile had very, very little sun during the winter during the mornings, the "proper day time" was notoriously "shifted"

ghaff 5y ago
I remember a guide on a trip a number of years back telling that she rather liked the northern latitude (Alaska). In winter you're screwed anyway and in summer you have more light than you know what to do with. I'm sure an hour shift doesn't make things much different. Most of the people arguing are arguing around states where there is sort of enough light most of the year but some people like it earlier and some later.
tshaddox 5y ago
It's odd that most places seem very used to longitudinal time zones, but no one seems to be suggesting latitudinal time zones.
henrikschroder 5y ago
When you're as far north as Alaska, daylight savings stops making sense, because the difference in daylight hours over the year is huge. At Anchorage's latitude, two weeks after changing back to standard time, sunrise is back at the same time it was before the change, and mornings will get a lot darker until you reach midwinter. In California, the effect of the change is noticeable, because the difference in daylight hours is small over the year, so people who have only ever lived in California or similar are the ones complaining about "having to go to school in the dark" as if that was some weird anomaly or tragedy.
- manmal 5y ago
  There’s a growing body of research on the circadian clock, and, yes, going to school in the dark could turn out to be a tragedy eventually.
  - henrikschroder 5y ago
    What you're saying is completely irrelevant for people living closer to and above the arctic circle, because Daylight Savings does nothing at those latitudes anyway.
    - manmal 5y ago
      I agree. Most of the world's population don't live there though.

zozbot234 5y ago

That just means that the problem gets worse as the latitude gets farther away from the equator. It may be pretty unavoidable in such places, but why make it pointlessly worse?

SubiculumCode 5y ago
Maybe timezones should be based on longitude and DST should be based on latitude?

metafunctor 5y ago

Wasn't there a study or two that living on the western edge of a time zone poses higher health risks, presumably because people have to get up before sunrise to get to work. This why I, personally, would prefer standard time over DST. I really hate early mornings, and DST causes all mornings to be one hour earlier. EDIT: Googled a quick link about this: https://www.sciencealert.com/a-neurologist-explains-why-daylight-saving-time-is-terrible-for-our-health https://www.sciencealert.com/a-neurologist-explains-why-dayl...

stult 5y ago
Yeah, this is what makes me mad about this debate. Permanent DST proponents talk about how they like having daylight at the end of the day after work. Well, weigh that mild preference against the very real physiological harm it causes. They want to enjoy their afternoons. I want to work a normal 9-5 job without getting heart disease because of the stress of waking up before sunrise eight months out of the year.
- stormbrew 5y ago
  That's funny, I'd also like to avoid the stress of having the sun rise at 2-3am in the summer. It's almost as if there's no right answer here and the current status quo just makes everyone unhappy and unhealthy.
  - stult 5y ago
    The earliest that sunrise happens in the continental US is around 5AM during DST, so the earliest it would go is 4AM. That is in the extreme north of the country (excluding Alaska, which I'd say is not worth including in the conversation given its unique circumstances), on the eastern edges of time zones. So I don't know what you're talking about. If you read the article linked above, it specifically points out that there are measurable, concrete negative health effects from DST but not from standard time. So no, the sun rising early doesn't really stress you out the same way getting up before sunrise does. Not at all.
    - 5y ago

collegeburner 5y ago

I guess you're used to it. Making that change for people who were born and raised in early morning sun will probably not be good for them.

Broken_Hippo 5y ago
I moved from Indiana to Norway. You just get used to it and it isnt a big deal (sunrise is closer to 10am in December, with sunset around 2 or 2:30pm). Folks with winter depression sometimes struggle more here than they did in Indiana, but the doctors are prepared for this.
- collegeburner 5y ago
  > the doctors are prepared for this. I don't think putting people on antidepressants is a good answer, either. Those are meant to be used for about a year to get people back to normal.
  - stormbrew 5y ago
    It's far more likely they're referring to vitamin D supplements and SAD lamps than antidepressants, though I'm sure antidepressants are used when other things don't work.
  - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
    Well, then don't take them. I'm pretty sure you aren't responsible for other folks' medical care, though, and that's between them and their doctor. It doesn't matter how you think they should be used if you aren't a professional treating folks - especially considering that not all mental illnesses resolve within a year or at all.
    - collegeburner 5y ago
- jgwil2 5y ago

op00to 5y ago

I think it's not so much post 8am sunrises as pairing it up with pre 5pm sunsets that drive people insane.

contravariant 5y ago
Well that's winter for ya. Changing the clock isn't going to create more hours of sunlight (except arguably if you switch to DST at noon and back to winter time at midnight).

anikan_vader 5y ago

Not really a fair comparison, given that the Netherlands's latitude would put it in the Hudson Bay were it to be in North America. There are no major North American cities as far north as Amsterdam besides Anchorage.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
stygiansonic 5y ago
Edmonton, AB is at a higher latitude than Amsterdam and has a larger population. Calgary’s latitude is similar and also has a larger population than Amsterdam.
- anikan_vader 5y ago
  Guess I definitely should have limited the scope of my claim to America, thanks for the correction!

almog 5y ago

It's worth mentioning a satirical essay Benjamin Franklin wrote when he stayed in Paris as part of a diplomatic mission in which he basically chastises the citizens of Paris for not waking up with the sun. http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/franklin3.html http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/franklin3.html Here is a quote of how he suggest to change their lazy manners: "Every morning, as soon as the sun rises, let all the bells in every church be set ringing; and if that is not sufficient?, let cannon be fired in every street, to wake the sluggards effectually, and make them open their eyes to see their true interest." To me it bears so much resemblance to people's imminent fear of having a late sunrise.

conductr 5y ago

It's mostly because US is a big place (lng/lat diversity) and folks are rather mobile within it's borders. So, it becomes common to hear stories of the Floridian that moved to Seattle and how depressing it is.

kitten_mittens_ 5y ago
Having lived in both Hamburg (55deg lat) and Seattle (46), I can say that northwest Europe daylight hours are _brutal_ in the winter. The first winter I was in Hamburg, I think we got 10 hours of sun all of December.
- dathinab 5y ago
  Is Hamburg also permanently clouded in Winter like Berlin? (In Berlin we often have a non-stop gray sky pretty often from somewhere in December to "mid" or so February with just a few days exceptions, especially January is super painful. I honestly would prefer shorter colder but clear-skyed days with snow).
  - kitten_mittens_ 5y ago
    Pretty much. It'd get below freezing some days when it was clear and then snow. But that only happened a handful of times. I think Berlin is probably colder than Hamburg. Most of the Fall/Spring was 8C and raining in Hamburg.
tshaddox 5y ago
I can't imagine that large latitudinal moves are common enough to be a notable driver of public opinion in favor of nationwide daylight saving time.
- tooltower 5y ago
  But they are the loudest opinion. It's a lot like how people are more likely to write an online review if they have had a negative experience.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

The subset of Americans in question doesn't have much in the way of big problems hence why this is getting a "the sky is falling" response rather than a "ok, whatever" response.

ipaddr 5y ago
Some people will always try to downplay other people's success or misfortune then they stereotype them into a category that isn't themselves but it turns out to represent their unspoken views.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

kokx 5y ago

I'm from the Netherlands as well, and I'm very scared of the talks of permanent DST over here. Which means that the sun would rise at 9:45 if we permanently switch to DST. Our country would be better suited at UTC, instead of UTC+1. Keeping it permanently at UTC+2 would be a special form of hell for me.