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As a zen Buddhist, I've always kinda felt our Tibetan 'dharma brothers' style of buddhism (admittedly, I don't know a lot about) feels much more like a proper r

• mytailorisrich 5y ago
  Tibet is strategically located and has been part of the Great Game in Asia for a long time. In fact, the British tried to invade it at the very beginning of the 20th century but hard landscape and the Tibetan and Chinese armies repelled them. Following that the Western powers even signed a treaty recognizing Chinese sovereignty over Tibet...
• DeusExMachina 5y ago
  Tibet provides a lot of water to China and India
  • cyberpunk 5y ago
    And what, china thinks tibet will somehow find a way to stop rivers running? Or the kind of people who move individual ants while building temples would poison such waters? I still don't get it. Maybe it's those little blue flowers from Batman Begins they're after? >_<
    • soperj 5y ago
      If they don't take it, who will?
    • throwaway_1928 5y ago
      China is already planning the "world's riskiest mega dam" in Tibet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEYuRFJ12iw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEYuRFJ12iw. It plans to use water supply as a weapon against India.
      • bigcat123 5y ago
      • jhvkjhk 5y ago
        The video said the aim is to reduce CO2 emission.
  • warner_of_doom 5y ago
    China, yes. India, no. Most of the water entrapment areas of India are within India's borders. And, the rest come from the Himalayas, where it isn't easy to divert the flows, and most of those mountains are under Indian control. See: https://www.thetibetpost.com/en/features/44-environment-and-health/6941-tibet-the-third-pole-and-water-tower-of-asia https://www.thetibetpost.com/en/features/44-environment-and-... The real threat is China launching attacks from Tibet, against India. Why? Because much of Chinese trade goes through the Indian Ocean, where India has negative control. So, it is easy to see China getting wary of India and launching a territorial war from Tibet, in order to gain dominance over India. And, of course, Pakistan would join in.
• whimsicalism 5y ago
  They were not so peaceful and introspective when they were actually in power. This is basically a CCP talking point at this point, but it is pretty true that the system they governed was essentially a serfdom-powered society. See the sort of punishments that were common for people who tried to organize the serfs in any way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lungshar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lungshar
  • technobabbler 5y ago
    Just as a side thought... if you look long enough at any country's history, you'll surely find horrors and terrible individuals. But that rarely means that country or its modern descendants would want to be "liberated" by a foreign conquerer, whether that's China or the USA. Forced assimilation is a form of genocide and people would almost always choose to be oppressed by one of their own rather than a foreigner...
    • whimsicalism 5y ago
      Not saying it does, although for note this structure I'm describing was Tibet in the 1940s-50s, so not too far in the past. They guy who did this blinding is the guy who picked the current Dalai Lama Agree that a regime being "better than" one that existed in the past doesn't justify repression, but also what is "foreign" and what is not is something that is socially constructed and shaped by the passage of time, not objective fact. For instance, I would not have preferred for the South in the US to be able to secede because "repression by a local is better than foreign Northerners."
      • rackjack 5y ago
        • whimsicalism 5y ago
          Not quite, since I'm specifically responding to someone describing how "peaceful" Tibet's society was. Indeed, pointing to rhetorical fallacies deployed by the Soviet Union to distract from a discussion of Tibet is more likely to be whataboutism itself?
• technobabbler 5y ago
  IMHO only, not an expert/informed analysis: Buddhism can be a risk to Chinese harmony if left to a separate authority (the real Dalai Lama). The Chinese grand social experiment of a strong state can only really work if they are relatively culturally homogenous, whether in Tibet or Hong Kong or Xinjiang or Taiwan. Dissent plants the seeds of change, and the CCP's system doesn't work when there is too much diversity of values. It's uber-collectivism in the name of the nation. China very rarely does anything in the name of short-term profit. Their government doesn't work on 4-year competitive cycles like ours does, they plan and orchestrate in decades, and to them it's safer to conquer and assimilate other territories while they are still underdeveloped than when they become too powerful, either economically (like Taiwan) or culturally (like Tibet) or both (like Hong Kong). Having a puppet religious master under their control, along with all of Tibet's future economic output, is reason enough to seize it, even the real gains won't be realized for another few decades. The artificial legitimacy of Chinese-controlled Buddhism would greatly expand their cultural sphere of influence both inside and outside their immediate borders.
  • cyberpunk 5y ago
    I would hope that China would understand Buddhism enough to know that there is no possible separate authority... I mean, the Heart sutra almost definitely came from China.. Although, I admit that I do have a hard time knitting together Tibetan and Burmese etc forms of Buddhism with what my understanding is (zen). They seem to genuinely worship Gautama Buddha as if he was some kinda god or something. That's not what we're into at all. He was just a normal dude, in zen... And I mean... Dogen too. Both kinda interesting and insightful ones, ones we probably can learn something from (also learn some negative things from, e.g, O.G buddha walked out on his family (what a cunt!)) but yeah, there's no space laser eyes or anything in my book. Just some dudes that looked at a wall for some years, and realised they're essentially the same as the local lemon tree. Kinda makes sense to me. Takes a while though. Even though I'm a buddhist, I seem to really offend non-zen buddhists in this fashion, which I find kinda hilarious.
    • technobabbler 5y ago
      > I would hope that China would understand Buddhism enough to know that there is no possible separate authority... I mean, the Heart sutra almost definitely came from China.. Speaking as an agnostic, outside observer looking in on the various forms of Buddhism: Buddhism has mutated a lot in its history, and every country it touches has been changed by it and in turn changes it. I don't think any two countries practice the same form of Buddhism. Some sects of it are strongly mystical and others are more rational, and deification is an important part of some practices (and practitioners) and not others. In the US, I've been to supposedly Zen practices that had an emphasis on "acknowledging/honoring" the bodhisattvas prior to meditation; to me, as an agnostic, it felt very similar to worship. "Buddhism with Chinese characteristics" (to steal a phrase) mixes their particular cultural norms with the Indian version, adds on Confucianism and Taoism to some degree, and then seeks to put it all under CCP control. Much like the Romans absorbed Christianity and added their own flavor, China does the same with its assimilees... again, for cultural and political hegemony. They are trying to weave the young puppet Dalai Lama into their own narrative, slowly and subtly. You are a Buddhist in the same sense that Protestants and Catholics are both Christian, but that never stopped them from disagreeing :) Weird, the arbitrary lines in the sand we like to draw, no?
• dirtyid 5y ago
  It's 1/10 of modern Chinese territory, no one is going to give up that much land. Headwaters to major rivers feeding South Asia. Security, see CIA's Tibet program. Unlimited mineral resources. >making them a profit It's mostly not, spending billions on high speed rail and other infra linkage to control restive region and the entire western theater command security network is expensive. But wealth + new military capabilities makes taming this frontier feasible. Military forces in Tibet can reach huge strategic areas of South Asia while Tibet itself is buffer from core PRC territories. The richer PRC is is, the easier exploiting Tibet becomes, and the more there is to be gained. Serious mining started just 10 years ago.
• billiam 5y ago
  Minerals, particularly rare earths, that are a huge strategic asset to China and their desire to dominate the world economy. It's also in a strategic place vis a vis India, and they can't tolerate even a degree of autonomy of such a large area adjacent to their rival in Asia. But the real threat is a national and religious identity separate from China.
• estaseuropano 5y ago
  I practice anapana and vipassana so can empathise, but it is plain ignorant to think Buddhists are necessarily peaceful. Tibet was a violent warrior kingdom and Buddhists have committed many crimes too. See the ongoing (!!) genocide in Myanmar where Buddhists slaughter Muslims. You could argue those agent real Buddhists, but thats just another Scotsman. I don't mean to diminish the crimes the Chinese continue to commit against the Tibetans, nor the benefits of Buddhist practice, but seeing Buddhism with rose tinted glasses is just not reflecting reality.
• julianeon 5y ago
  This is factually incorrect: claiming Chan Buddhists do not believe in reincarnation. On the facts, wrong. The Buddha taught reincarnation and all major schools essentially follow his example. This includes Chan Buddhism. It may not be emphasized or really suggested as a topic for reflection - but if you are asking point blank "Do Chan Buddhists accept the idea of reincarnation after death, as the Buddha taught - or do they teach reincarnation as wrong view", the answer is "they accept reincarnation." Source: look up Chan Buddhism on Wikipedia, or just Google search it. Not a single result affirming that Chan Buddhists teach the falsity of reincarnation.
  • cyberpunk 5y ago
    You are absolutely wrong. The whole reincarnation thing probably came from Brahmanism, but Buddha tought impermanence which is absolutely the opposite of any form of reincarnation. There is no soul to be reincarnated. Yes, there are some Koans and such which use stories involving reincarnation, however these are not literal teachings, they are just stories used to make a different point (usually, something about non duality). Do some buddhists believe in reincarnation? yep. Some are also christians, or Scientologists, or atheists too. We don't know what comes after we die so it's really up to whomever to think whatever they wish. We do not teach it, however. And the Buddha did not either. Zen teachers would all agree that reincarnation is a wrong view. Back to Dogen, even. It's literally the opposite of what we think about the nature of self.
• regpertom 5y ago
  Hello, all replies at this point I think are ~cultural. Caspianreport (others to probs but that’s where I heard it) iirc says a lot of China water comes from Tibet region. Many big Chinese rivers start there. This is first comment ever, god knows how long I’ve lurked, please take it easy on me. Confirmation bias link and quote: https://depts.washington.edu/chinaciv/geo/proper.htm https://depts.washington.edu/chinaciv/geo/proper.htm “ Two great rivers run through China Proper: the Yellow River in the north, and the Yangtze (or Yangzi ) River to the south. In fact, most of China Proper belongs to the drainage-basins of these two rivers. Both originate to the far west in the Tibetan Plateau.”
• deleted 5y ago
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• perfopt 5y ago
  CHina wants the water sources to the major rivers in Asia.
• thelittleone 5y ago
  I'm curious how you define "proper religion" in this context.
• hosh 5y ago
  There is a lot of history there between China and Tibet reaching all the way to the Yuan dynasty. For example, the Mongolian people have deep ties with the Tibetan Buddhists, such that the Mongolian rulers of the Yuan dynasty gave a lot of leeway to the region. The Manchurian rulers of the Qing dynasty were Buddhists themselves and found a way to politically claim the area while letting Tibet run as a vassal state. Lastly, there was this prophecy among the Tibetans about the diaspora. China has historically considered themselves as the axis mundi of the world. The name “中國” when translated to “Middle Kingdom” loses a lot of the flavor. Better translated as “Central Kingdom”, an insular society in which the far-flung frontiers pivot around the Chinese culture. Both the Opium Wars and the Boxer Rebellion were rude awakenings and humiliating. But I think a lot of people in the West underestimate how much China could have been the superpower at the time, and instead chose not to. I think China’s political goals in the modern time make more sense when viewed this way. Consolidate the historical territories it once held. Make its influence known so other polities can’t humiliate and rob China again.
• FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
  There is an argument that, by controlling the high parts of the Himalayas, China can control the rivers of Asia, in the same way that the United States controls the Colorado River and similar. With their civil engineering prowess, they can dam and divert them when fresh water becomes scarce. Goodbye to the Indus, the Ganga, the Brahmaputra. China needs its own Cadillac Desert.
• thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > chan (which became zen) Chan and zen are the same thing, literally the same word. > I’ve never worked out what china wants in Tibet tbh though, does anyone have a clue? I think the failure of China to divest its non-Chinese territories after the downfall of the Qing Empire mostly occurred because no one wanted to take responsibility for losing territory. For Tibet in particular, though, it seems worth noting that Tibet is the source of both of China's major rivers. The Yellow and Yangtze rivers are not less significant to China than the Nile is to Egypt. Look what's happening between Egypt and Ethiopia.
• Hammershaft 5y ago
  Tibet is the source of many rivers essential to China and it's south asian neighbours.