5 ms·

It depends on whether you have a prescriptive or descriptive view of the language. Usually, smug people who enjoy correcting other’s speech lean prescriptive.

by ant6n 5y ago

Brian_K_White 5y ago
I will take those smug corrections over letting "literally" happen.
- singingboyo 5y ago
  That's just like, literally your opinion, man. I get it, sort of. In that case I just tell myself "it's hyperbole for lazy people" and move on. "Could care less", though, that one I cannot reconcile.
  - jazzyjackson 5y ago
    I reckon there's an implied sarcasm of "As If", that is: "as if I could care any less"
    - sundarurfriend 5y ago
      This is going to be my headcanon for why people do this (though it's more likely laziness/carelessness). This usage seems to be becoming more and more common, so this will help me pretend it makes sense and move on.
      - dllthomas 5y ago
        I like "I could care less. [In theory.]"
- newaccount74 5y ago
  It kinda makes sense that literally means figuratively, an alliteration to literature, where things often aren't meant literally either.
- SllX 5y ago
  Already happened: https://greenwald.substack.com/p/a-court-ruled-rachel-maddows-viewers https://greenwald.substack.com/p/a-court-ruled-rachel-maddow...
- jhedwards 5y ago
  I'll take the bait here and be the one to point out that the usage of literally to mean "figuratively" is recorded in dictionaries at least 100 years old, and there are probably even older examples of that usage.
  - mark-r 5y ago
    Is that literally true?
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    Literally doesn't mean "figuratively". It either means "literally", or it is used for emphasis, like "really" or "deeply" etc. But it is never used with the express purpose of meaning "figuratively", i.e. "not literally". That is, no one is saying "I am literally dying to know" to try to communicate the fact that they are not, in fact, dying to know. Instead, the difference between "I am dying to know" and "I am literally dying to know" is one of emphasis. The second is almost perfectly equivalent to "I am really dying to know" or "I am very much dying to know". By contrast, "I am figuratively dying to know" would imply that you are specifically not dying to know, which everyone understands perfectly well.
    - Brian_K_White 5y ago
      "That is literally insane." What have I just said? If only we had a word whose express purpose was to avoid ambiguity for those times when it matters to communicate without ambiguity...
      - tsimionescu 5y ago
        There's no such thing as communication without ambiguity while using natural language. In your particular example, any interpretation depends crucially on what "that" might be referring to. It could refer to an animal, in which case you may mean that it seems to be suffering from a mental illness (maybe it has rabies) OR that it is unable to think clearly (it is insane with hunger, or excitement). It could be referring to an action, which may mean that it is either the action of someone suffering from a mental illness, or the action of someone being temporarily unable to think clearly, or it is an absurd action. These are all literal meanings of insane. Of course, if we add figurative meanings we can increase the ambiguity further. However, your criticism applies similarly to words like "truly" - if I say "that is truly insane", do I mean that it is insane in one of the literal senses of the word? Or the figurative uses? Am I just emphasizing either of these meanings, or do I feel a need to confirm that I am not lying? Either way we take it, though, "literally" can never be replaced with "figuratively" without altering the meaning of a phrase. In it's use as an intensifier, it does NOT mean "figuratively", it means "very". Also, looking on Merriam-Webster, they clearly discuss this and reach the same conclusion. They also mention that this meaning for emphasis appears as early as the 18th century, in the works of Charlotte Brontë, James Joyce, Mark Twain.
- biztos 5y ago
  Like for reals? Because culture. (I’m also wishing the horde off my lawn but they may have already won.)
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  is being ironic not permissiable in this prescriptivist future of yours?
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  That is a silly position. "Literally" has become an intensifier, like so many other words in the English language. It is no different from "truly" or "verily" or "really", and the path it took from its literal meaning to its intensifier status is identical.
rgrieselhuber 5y ago
Very true. Although there still is no ‘x’ in espresso.
- tedunangst 5y ago
  Of course there is. Expresso, from the Latin expressus, meaning squeezed.
- mwcremer 5y ago
  Its definately a loosing battle.
- newaccount74 5y ago
  My kids call a short coffee a nespresso, not sure if that's better than expresso.
BoiledCabbage 5y ago
Even though the prescriptive view is wrong people still have it? ;) I'd love for one of them to show the original centuries old definition of English that they are prescribing from. Or put another way, if the prescriptive view is nothing but a descriptive view of language from a few decades back then essentially you have a descriptive view that tries to ignore that time isn't constant.
- thereddaikon 5y ago
  I'm not a fan of a prescriptive view of language. But at the same time I'm also not a fan of letting morons decide the course of things. Just because people use phrases wrong, or can't be bothered to learn how to spell doesn't mean the "correct" spelling should just change to accommodate them. Why doesn't everyone else get a vote? Otherwise what's the point of spell checkers, or dictionaries, or English class at all? Having a standard to hold our selves to is not having a prescriptive approach to language. Prescriptive language is what the French do. They have a government office that decides the official rules of French and official documents have to follow them. For example, even though everyone calls a Computer a Computer pretty much everywhere in the world with variation on spelling, the French government has to call it an ordinateur. The point of language is to facilitate communication. To do so there needs to be a standard. You don't have to legally enforce it, it should be voluntary. Freedom of speech and all that. But I reject the copout that "language evolves, deal with it".
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > Even though the prescriptive view is wrong people still have it? ;) Yup. Some of us do so quite consciously and intentionally, and knowing it is doomed to fail -- so, if you will, quixotically[1]. "Why on Earth would you want to do that?", I hear you ask. I'm glad you did -- let me explain: It's a delaying defence, intended to slow down the enem^W speed of change. We see that slowing down as a good thing, because it increases intelligibility over time. You, as a speaker of English, can with some effort read and understand Shakespeare and (hiss rough contemporary) the King James translation of the Bible... But not much further back; Chaucer is a struggle, and Beowulf just gibberish to you. Icelanders, OTOH, have no more problems with the Viking sagas, written down about the time of Chaucer, than you do with Shakespeare; and had they any litterature written down in the time of Beowulf, I'd imagine it would be no worse for them than Chaucer is for you. To Swedes, on the other other hand, the writings of Gustav II Adolf (not to mention the chronicles of his grandfather Gustaf I Vasa's historian) are Chaucer-level difficult even though they're from about the time of Shakespeare (or less than a century before); actual Chaucer-era writings like the medieval laws of king Magnus are Beowulf-level gibberish; nineteenth-century poetry -- heck, even the 1917 Bible or the prose of Strindberg, who IIRC died just a few years before that translation! -- seem to be as hard to grasp as Shakespeare is to you. And this shit seems to just be accelerating; kids nowadays have a hard time not just with Strindberg, but with novels I enjoyed in my youth -- written in the 1940s, -60s, or even later! So, in the hope that my grandkids (if ever I have any) will understand what the heck I'm saying to them and I what they're telling me, I fight this hopeless rearguard action, willingly sacrificing myself to the slings and arrows of mindlessly laissez-faire anti-prescriptivists for the greater good of mankind. So slowing Swedish down to the rate of decay--eh, development -- of English is my primary goal. But, hey, while I'm at it anyway, why not try to improve the cross-time communication power of English, too? There, hope that answers your questions? ___ [1]: Except I guess the Knight of La Mancha didn't know that last bit. Unless, I guess, if you want to argue that deep down he really had to know that all along.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nr2x 5y ago
Somebody once said to me “you can’t just make up your own words!” I asked where, exactly, the words we have came from?
- ant6n 5y ago
  From other people who perhaps were allowed to make up words!
biztos 5y ago
I just grit my teeth and remind myself how exclusive is the club of believers in English Logic.
yreg 5y ago
There are objectively prescriptive (codified) languages. In Slovakia we have laws giving a certain public institution the responsibility to define what are the proper rules to use the language, including maintaining the dictionary of all the allowed words and their meanings. Anything beyond that (with the exception of e.g. scientific terms) is objectively incorrect slovak.
- fuzzer37 5y ago
  And yet that's still not how languages actually work.
  - yreg 5y ago
    Why not?
    - fuzzer37 5y ago
      Have you never made up a new word or colloquialism among friends?
    - qubitcoder 5y ago
      Languages aren't logical pre-determined constructions (unless they're intentionally designed, such as Esperanto). Humans create languages. And they constantly change and evolve, including new words, letters, grammar, etc. Consider Old English versus Modern English [0]. Or even software companies that have become nouns or verbs in common parlance (e.g. "to google"). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English

It depends on whether you have a prescriptive or descriptive view of the language. Usually, smug people who enjoy correcting other’s speech lean prescriptive.

by ant6n 5y ago

It depends on whether you have a prescriptive or descriptive view of the language. Usually, smug people who enjoy correcting other’s speech lean prescriptive.

Brian_K_White 5y ago

I will take those smug corrections over letting "literally" happen.

singingboyo 5y ago
That's just like, literally your opinion, man. I get it, sort of. In that case I just tell myself "it's hyperbole for lazy people" and move on. "Could care less", though, that one I cannot reconcile.
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  I reckon there's an implied sarcasm of "As If", that is: "as if I could care any less"
  - sundarurfriend 5y ago
    This is going to be my headcanon for why people do this (though it's more likely laziness/carelessness). This usage seems to be becoming more and more common, so this will help me pretend it makes sense and move on.
    - dllthomas 5y ago
      I like "I could care less. [In theory.]"
newaccount74 5y ago
It kinda makes sense that literally means figuratively, an alliteration to literature, where things often aren't meant literally either.
SllX 5y ago
Already happened: https://greenwald.substack.com/p/a-court-ruled-rachel-maddows-viewers https://greenwald.substack.com/p/a-court-ruled-rachel-maddow...
jhedwards 5y ago
I'll take the bait here and be the one to point out that the usage of literally to mean "figuratively" is recorded in dictionaries at least 100 years old, and there are probably even older examples of that usage.
- mark-r 5y ago
  Is that literally true?
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  Literally doesn't mean "figuratively". It either means "literally", or it is used for emphasis, like "really" or "deeply" etc. But it is never used with the express purpose of meaning "figuratively", i.e. "not literally". That is, no one is saying "I am literally dying to know" to try to communicate the fact that they are not, in fact, dying to know. Instead, the difference between "I am dying to know" and "I am literally dying to know" is one of emphasis. The second is almost perfectly equivalent to "I am really dying to know" or "I am very much dying to know". By contrast, "I am figuratively dying to know" would imply that you are specifically not dying to know, which everyone understands perfectly well.
  - Brian_K_White 5y ago
    "That is literally insane." What have I just said? If only we had a word whose express purpose was to avoid ambiguity for those times when it matters to communicate without ambiguity...
    - tsimionescu 5y ago
      There's no such thing as communication without ambiguity while using natural language. In your particular example, any interpretation depends crucially on what "that" might be referring to. It could refer to an animal, in which case you may mean that it seems to be suffering from a mental illness (maybe it has rabies) OR that it is unable to think clearly (it is insane with hunger, or excitement). It could be referring to an action, which may mean that it is either the action of someone suffering from a mental illness, or the action of someone being temporarily unable to think clearly, or it is an absurd action. These are all literal meanings of insane. Of course, if we add figurative meanings we can increase the ambiguity further. However, your criticism applies similarly to words like "truly" - if I say "that is truly insane", do I mean that it is insane in one of the literal senses of the word? Or the figurative uses? Am I just emphasizing either of these meanings, or do I feel a need to confirm that I am not lying? Either way we take it, though, "literally" can never be replaced with "figuratively" without altering the meaning of a phrase. In it's use as an intensifier, it does NOT mean "figuratively", it means "very". Also, looking on Merriam-Webster, they clearly discuss this and reach the same conclusion. They also mention that this meaning for emphasis appears as early as the 18th century, in the works of Charlotte Brontë, James Joyce, Mark Twain.
biztos 5y ago
Like for reals? Because culture. (I’m also wishing the horde off my lawn but they may have already won.)
jazzyjackson 5y ago
is being ironic not permissiable in this prescriptivist future of yours?
tsimionescu 5y ago
That is a silly position. "Literally" has become an intensifier, like so many other words in the English language. It is no different from "truly" or "verily" or "really", and the path it took from its literal meaning to its intensifier status is identical.

rgrieselhuber 5y ago

Very true. Although there still is no ‘x’ in espresso.

tedunangst 5y ago
Of course there is. Expresso, from the Latin expressus, meaning squeezed.
mwcremer 5y ago
Its definately a loosing battle.
newaccount74 5y ago
My kids call a short coffee a nespresso, not sure if that's better than expresso.

BoiledCabbage 5y ago

Even though the prescriptive view is wrong people still have it? ;) I'd love for one of them to show the original centuries old definition of English that they are prescribing from. Or put another way, if the prescriptive view is nothing but a descriptive view of language from a few decades back then essentially you have a descriptive view that tries to ignore that time isn't constant.

thereddaikon 5y ago
I'm not a fan of a prescriptive view of language. But at the same time I'm also not a fan of letting morons decide the course of things. Just because people use phrases wrong, or can't be bothered to learn how to spell doesn't mean the "correct" spelling should just change to accommodate them. Why doesn't everyone else get a vote? Otherwise what's the point of spell checkers, or dictionaries, or English class at all? Having a standard to hold our selves to is not having a prescriptive approach to language. Prescriptive language is what the French do. They have a government office that decides the official rules of French and official documents have to follow them. For example, even though everyone calls a Computer a Computer pretty much everywhere in the world with variation on spelling, the French government has to call it an ordinateur. The point of language is to facilitate communication. To do so there needs to be a standard. You don't have to legally enforce it, it should be voluntary. Freedom of speech and all that. But I reject the copout that "language evolves, deal with it".
CRConrad 5y ago
> Even though the prescriptive view is wrong people still have it? ;) Yup. Some of us do so quite consciously and intentionally, and knowing it is doomed to fail -- so, if you will, quixotically[1]. "Why on Earth would you want to do that?", I hear you ask. I'm glad you did -- let me explain: It's a delaying defence, intended to slow down the enem^W speed of change. We see that slowing down as a good thing, because it increases intelligibility over time. You, as a speaker of English, can with some effort read and understand Shakespeare and (hiss rough contemporary) the King James translation of the Bible... But not much further back; Chaucer is a struggle, and Beowulf just gibberish to you. Icelanders, OTOH, have no more problems with the Viking sagas, written down about the time of Chaucer, than you do with Shakespeare; and had they any litterature written down in the time of Beowulf, I'd imagine it would be no worse for them than Chaucer is for you. To Swedes, on the other other hand, the writings of Gustav II Adolf (not to mention the chronicles of his grandfather Gustaf I Vasa's historian) are Chaucer-level difficult even though they're from about the time of Shakespeare (or less than a century before); actual Chaucer-era writings like the medieval laws of king Magnus are Beowulf-level gibberish; nineteenth-century poetry -- heck, even the 1917 Bible or the prose of Strindberg, who IIRC died just a few years before that translation! -- seem to be as hard to grasp as Shakespeare is to you. And this shit seems to just be accelerating; kids nowadays have a hard time not just with Strindberg, but with novels I enjoyed in my youth -- written in the 1940s, -60s, or even later! So, in the hope that my grandkids (if ever I have any) will understand what the heck I'm saying to them and I what they're telling me, I fight this hopeless rearguard action, willingly sacrificing myself to the slings and arrows of mindlessly laissez-faire anti-prescriptivists for the greater good of mankind. So slowing Swedish down to the rate of decay--eh, development -- of English is my primary goal. But, hey, while I'm at it anyway, why not try to improve the cross-time communication power of English, too? There, hope that answers your questions? ___ [1]: Except I guess the Knight of La Mancha didn't know that last bit. Unless, I guess, if you want to argue that deep down he really had to know that all along.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

nr2x 5y ago

Somebody once said to me “you can’t just make up your own words!” I asked where, exactly, the words we have came from?

ant6n 5y ago
From other people who perhaps were allowed to make up words!

biztos 5y ago

I just grit my teeth and remind myself how exclusive is the club of believers in English Logic.

yreg 5y ago

There are objectively prescriptive (codified) languages. In Slovakia we have laws giving a certain public institution the responsibility to define what are the proper rules to use the language, including maintaining the dictionary of all the allowed words and their meanings. Anything beyond that (with the exception of e.g. scientific terms) is objectively incorrect slovak.

fuzzer37 5y ago
And yet that's still not how languages actually work.
- yreg 5y ago
  Why not?
  - fuzzer37 5y ago
    Have you never made up a new word or colloquialism among friends?
  - qubitcoder 5y ago
    Languages aren't logical pre-determined constructions (unless they're intentionally designed, such as Esperanto). Humans create languages. And they constantly change and evolve, including new words, letters, grammar, etc. Consider Old English versus Modern English [0]. Or even software companies that have become nouns or verbs in common parlance (e.g. "to google"). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English