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I used to hear this all the time in law school, something to the effect that the US should never relinquish its sovereignty by signing the Rome Statute and subj

I used to hear this all the time in law school, something to the effect that the US should never relinquish its sovereignty by signing the Rome Statute and subject itself to the International Criminal Court. This was at the height of the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the associated allegations of POW torture and abuse (e.g. Abu Ghraib, waterboarding, guantanamo bay, etc…). How ironic 20 years later the very same classmates that argued waterboarding wasn’t torture are the same ones that claim they can’t breathe wearing a cloth mask and mask mandates are a violation of their Constitutional Rights because of their often fabricated “medical conditions.” Back then I’d ask my classmates to look at the other UN member countries not signatories to the Rome Statute subject to the ICC: China, Iraq, Israel, Libya, Qatar, and Yemen. Not exactly a list of countries championing human rights or state Sovereignty, the US included. Absolute sovereignty is a very romantic notion, but the US gives up sovereignty regularly through other treaties, it is very telling the Rome Statute is where the US and others draw the line. If you are worried about violation of your US Constitutional Rights you should be significantly more concerned about the US government that in the last 20 years has created secret kills lists and conducted extra judicial killings of its own citizens including bombing citizens abroad in violation of the territorial integrity of other nations. When those charged with protecting and enforcing your Constitutional Rights are the ones violating them, I personally like the idea those bearing the most responsibility be subject to an International Court. I don’t want to say your concern about being subject to the ICC as a civilian otherwise in contravention to your US Constitutional Rights isn’t worthy of discussion or potential concern, but it is detached from reality. Moreover, the ICC has jurisdiction over things like genocide, war crimes, and crimes against humanity it’s not exactly a “criminal court” the average citizen is likely to find themselves in violation of their Constitutional Rivhts (though perhaps you are not a civilian rather a high ranking military officer, in which case I understand your concern over an international court that prosecutes war crimes and human rights abuses).

MomoXenosaga 5y ago
If the US joined the ICC they would have the right to send US judges to the Hague. It wouldn't be a "foreign court". But I think the real issue is that the CIA doesn't want oversight from anyone foreign or domestic.
- throwawaycities 5y ago
  Not sure you replied to the right person I never called the ICC a “foreign court.” However, whether or not US judges are, or may be, appointed to the ICC or any other tribunal, US judges don’t make them domestic courts nor would they apply domestic law. From the time of the Nuremberg Trials these kinds of courts are commonly called international tribunals in English, the ICC is just a proper name of one such international tribunal. Another includes the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, which was not a domestic court. Arguably the first hybrid international tribunal/domestic court was the Special Court for Sierra Leon where both international law and domestic laws were applied. If Liberia ever successfully gets a war crimes it is likely to be a similar hybrid international tribunal/domestic court approach. Coincidentally I was part of a law clinic that represented a number of Liberian refugees and torture victims and obtained a $22M judgment against the son of the Liberian ex-President Charles Taylor in the US under the Foreign Tort Claims Act. If you’ve ever seen the movie Lord of War, the son is the character in this clip [2] with the golden AK-47 though the names were changed to Baptiste it’s otherwise pretty accurate, down to the fact Charles “Chucky” Taylor Jr. was a private school kid in Florida with a normal life until he went to Liberia and become the head of his Father’s security force ironically called Anti-terrorism Unit. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=go9kV4nxsfk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=go9kV4nxsfk
leereeves 5y ago
> look at the other UN member countries not signatories to the Rome Statute subject to the ICC: China, Iraq, Israel, Libya, Qatar, and Yemen That's far from a complete list. There are 193 UN members[1]; only 123 have made themselves subject to the ICC[2]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Na... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Statute_of_the_International_Criminal_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Sta...
- throwawaycities 5y ago
  I never said it was a complete list. On the other hand you are not distinguishing countries that have signed but not yet ratified the treaty, leaving only 41 members. Of those 41 members feel free to highlight those countries which are shining examples of rule of law and human rights.
  - leereeves 5y ago
    > On the other hand you are not distinguishing countries that have signed but not yet ratified the treaty, leaving only 41 members. The US has also signed but not yet ratified the treaty. We're not one of the 41 who haven't signed. > Of those 41 members feel free to highlight those countries which are shining examples of rule of law and human rights. I couldn't name any countries I would consider "shining examples of rule of law and human rights", ICC member or not. Even the ICC itself has been accused of racism and neo-colonialism because nearly all its prosecutions have targeted Africa. I did notice that Ukraine, like us, signed but didn't ratify the treaty, which I thought was interesting at this time.
    - monocasa 5y ago
      At the time of the initial signing off the Rome Statute, Ukraine was a puppet state of Russia. Since then, it has been on track to ratify the statute, recently affirming ICC jurisdiction to prosecute war crimes going as far back as the Euromaiden protests. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/02/ukraine-countries-request-icc-war-crimes-inquiry https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/02/ukraine-countries-reques...

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

If the US joined the ICC they would have the right to send US judges to the Hague. It wouldn't be a "foreign court". But I think the real issue is that the CIA doesn't want oversight from anyone foreign or domestic.

throwawaycities 5y ago
Not sure you replied to the right person I never called the ICC a “foreign court.” However, whether or not US judges are, or may be, appointed to the ICC or any other tribunal, US judges don’t make them domestic courts nor would they apply domestic law. From the time of the Nuremberg Trials these kinds of courts are commonly called international tribunals in English, the ICC is just a proper name of one such international tribunal. Another includes the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, which was not a domestic court. Arguably the first hybrid international tribunal/domestic court was the Special Court for Sierra Leon where both international law and domestic laws were applied. If Liberia ever successfully gets a war crimes it is likely to be a similar hybrid international tribunal/domestic court approach. Coincidentally I was part of a law clinic that represented a number of Liberian refugees and torture victims and obtained a $22M judgment against the son of the Liberian ex-President Charles Taylor in the US under the Foreign Tort Claims Act. If you’ve ever seen the movie Lord of War, the son is the character in this clip [2] with the golden AK-47 though the names were changed to Baptiste it’s otherwise pretty accurate, down to the fact Charles “Chucky” Taylor Jr. was a private school kid in Florida with a normal life until he went to Liberia and become the head of his Father’s security force ironically called Anti-terrorism Unit. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=go9kV4nxsfk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=go9kV4nxsfk

leereeves 5y ago

> look at the other UN member countries not signatories to the Rome Statute subject to the ICC: China, Iraq, Israel, Libya, Qatar, and Yemen That's far from a complete list. There are 193 UN members[1]; only 123 have made themselves subject to the ICC[2]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Na... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Statute_of_the_International_Criminal_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Sta...

throwawaycities 5y ago
I never said it was a complete list. On the other hand you are not distinguishing countries that have signed but not yet ratified the treaty, leaving only 41 members. Of those 41 members feel free to highlight those countries which are shining examples of rule of law and human rights.
- leereeves 5y ago
  > On the other hand you are not distinguishing countries that have signed but not yet ratified the treaty, leaving only 41 members. The US has also signed but not yet ratified the treaty. We're not one of the 41 who haven't signed. > Of those 41 members feel free to highlight those countries which are shining examples of rule of law and human rights. I couldn't name any countries I would consider "shining examples of rule of law and human rights", ICC member or not. Even the ICC itself has been accused of racism and neo-colonialism because nearly all its prosecutions have targeted Africa. I did notice that Ukraine, like us, signed but didn't ratify the treaty, which I thought was interesting at this time.
  - monocasa 5y ago
    At the time of the initial signing off the Rome Statute, Ukraine was a puppet state of Russia. Since then, it has been on track to ratify the statute, recently affirming ICC jurisdiction to prosecute war crimes going as far back as the Euromaiden protests. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/02/ukraine-countries-request-icc-war-crimes-inquiry https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/02/ukraine-countries-reques...